Re: Sale Sharks & Salford Red Devils to play cross-code fixt : Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:36 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

Well back to the match, I do wonder about the date that has been set? Seems pretty close to the CC final date? Are Salford assuming they won't make the final this year??

Hadn't realised how close! That's in the same week isn't it?

Re: Sale Sharks & Salford Red Devils to play cross-code fixt : Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:37 pm  

Saint Simon wrote:

Late 80's - early 90's do you not remember ?

Here's a question. If the Dr gets bored with RL and walks away, where will that leave Salford? My guess is even with squad now, let alone extra marquee players you'd go bust within 6 months

Shush you rugby league started in 2013 in Salford remember? Let's not mention they were one of the clubs who voted to reduce the cap a couple of years ago!

I'm not too worried about exposing our players to Union, the rfu are only interested if it'll get them headlines

Re: Sale Sharks & Salford Red Devils to play cross-code fixt : Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:46 pm  

Saint Simon wrote:

Hadn't realised how close! That's in the same week isn't it?

3 days later.

I know Salford ain't favourites for the cup or even to get to the final, but it's a bit of a kick in the guts if before the first round the people in charge are already arranging a fixture for the same week assuming you ain't going to make it.

Not to forget they will have a SL fixture at the weekend.

I get why they are doing it, but either it will be a team of no bodies or they are willing to take a hit on players for the end of the season.

As the aim is top 8, I can't see them throwing a game in SL.

Re: Sale Sharks & Salford Red Devils to play cross-code fixt : Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:57 pm  

Saint Simon wrote:

The chairmen of Wigan and Leeds (the only currently profitable clubs) both want the salary cap to remain. Neither are shy of a few quid either. Does that at least not imply the salary cap is a good thing?
A year ago you'd have been crying foul if one team wanted to be able to spend what they wanted on players !

Wigan and Leeds profits are only into the £100k's noway they could carry on the way they are on those profits.

And hold on you've not answered my first question. I answerd your question about what if Koukash walked away and give you examples of other sports teams relying on benefactors, why only bring up Wigan and Leeds? What about Hudds, Hull FC, Warrington? Where would they be without tree cash rich owners.

Re: Sale Sharks & Salford Red Devils to play cross-code fixt : Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:05 pm  

Mike87 wrote:

Wigan and Leeds profits are only into the £100k's noway they could carry on the way they are on those profits.

And hold on you've not answered my first question. I answerd your question about what if Koukash walked away and give you examples of other sports teams relying on benefactors, why only bring up Wigan and Leeds? What about Hudds, Hull FC, Warrington? Where would they be without tree cash rich owners.

They'd all be knackered! But none of their chairmen are calling for the salary cap to be abandoned.

Re: Sale Sharks & Salford Red Devils to play cross-code fixt : Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:14 pm  

Saint Simon wrote:

They'd all be knackered! But none of their chairmen are calling for the salary cap to be abandoned.

Because there happy with the status quo, those teams are doing ok under the current system, but what they don't see is the quality of English RL is floundering, but there not bothered aslong as they still have the best players the league has. Even though they might be crap compared to what we had 10 years ago aslong as their the best players on offer and they play for either Wigan Leeds Warrington or saints then they don't care.

Where as Koukash wants exciting world class players in this league to promote it, get the big sponsors instead of a bloody second rate utility company, we can clearly see it now, every time we have a player coming through who looks the business he gets snapped up by Union or the NRL. It's down to one thing the salary cap simple as that.

And before you come out with "but your a Salford fan" "you wouldn't have said this 2 years ago" of course I wouldn't have said it but deep down I could still see the problem I was just biased towards my own team, and it's the same for every fan they ALL know what's good and bad for the GAME deep down but their biased views towards their team override the wrongs and rights.

Take Bradford Bulls fans now do you think they would vote for a raise in salary cap? NO WAY! But go back 10 years ago when they were collecting trophies like stamps and I bet my bottom dollar that they'd of welcomed it then. It's all about what relevant to your team at the time, if Warrington weren't getting to finals same goes for saints and Wigan do you think they'd settle for the way things are now? Now way they'd have the cap raised in a heart beat!

Re: Sale Sharks & Salford Red Devils to play cross-code fixt : Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:34 pm  

Mike87 wrote:

Because there happy with the status quo, those teams are doing ok under the current system, but what they don't see is the quality of English RL is floundering, but there not bothered aslong as they still have the best players the league has. Even though they might be crap compared to what we had 10 years ago aslong as their the best players on offer and they play for either Wigan Leeds Warrington or saints then they don't care.

Where as Koukash wants exciting world class players in this league to promote it, get the big sponsors instead of a bloody second rate utility company, we can clearly see it now, every time we have a player coming through who looks the business he gets snapped up by Union or the NRL. It's down to one thing the salary cap simple as that.

And before you come out with "but your a Salford fan" "you wouldn't have said this 2 years ago" of course I wouldn't have said it but deep down I could still see the problem I was just biased towards my own team, and it's the same for every fan they ALL know what's good and bad for the GAME deep down but their biased views towards their team override the wrongs and rights.

Take Bradford Bulls fans now do you think they would vote for a raise in salary cap? NO WAY! But go back 10 years ago when they were collecting trophies like stamps and I bet my bottom dollar that they'd of welcomed it then. It's all about what relevant to your team at the time, if Warrington weren't getting to finals same goes for saints and Wigan do you think they'd settle for the way things are now? Now way they'd have the cap raised in a heart beat!

I think your mistaking lack of ambition with managed expectation. To suggest saints, Wigan Leeds etc don't want to be the best in the world is silly imo, but it's about incremental and achievable, sustainable growth.

In the same way as koukash berates the rfl, you could berate saints for not building a 50,000 seater stadium. Even if they did it doesn't mean the 50,000 people would come each week - is that lack of ambition? Equally this myth that marquee players pay for themselves hasn't really seen any hard evidence either.

We all want world class talent in the competition. We just want to go about it in different ways. McManus has spent a long time and a lot of money building a club to be sustainable, and develop some of the best in the world - why should another chairman like koukash get his way just because he shouts louder? Develop your own talent, and the salary cap exponentially increases 5 years down the line - or is the deal Salford should just get given success now?

For the record, I'm for a salary cap increase, it should be tied in to inflation and increase a little each year.

Re: Sale Sharks & Salford Red Devils to play cross-code fixt : Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:30 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

I think your mistaking lack of ambition with managed expectation. To suggest saints, Wigan Leeds etc don't want to be the best in the world is silly imo, but it's about incremental and achievable, sustainable growth.

In the same way as koukash berates the rfl, you could berate saints for not building a 50,000 seater stadium. Even if they did it doesn't mean the 50,000 people would come each week - is that lack of ambition? Equally this myth that marquee players pay for themselves hasn't really seen any hard evidence either.

We all want world class talent in the competition. We just want to go about it in different ways. McManus has spent a long time and a lot of money building a club to be sustainable, and develop some of the best in the world - why should another chairman like koukash get his way just because he shouts louder? Develop your own talent, and the salary cap exponentially increases 5 years down the line - or is the deal Salford should just get given success now?

For the record, I'm for a salary cap increase, it should be tied in to inflation and increase a little each year.

I don't think I am mixing the two up at all, didn't Ian Lenegan come out with " why would I want to spend more on the cap when we've just won super league" to me that isn't managing expectation because I know for a fact that Lenegan could spend miles more but he won't because he doesn't have too because the best players already play for him, to me he's underpaying his players. Wigan are in that position because As you say they have good youth just like saints and Leeds but you only get good youth through good scouting networks and good academies, and you only have the chance to achieve that is through having big money to pump into the said academies/youth systems. You don't make money like that as a club unless your successful and to me Wigan Saints and Leeds have (before the salary cap) always spent the most on players to have that success.

Say back in the early 80s Salford had big benefactors like Wigan did and cleaned up all the trophies that would of give them the oppertunity (with the money they made from winning trophies) to create there own world class scouting network and hugely successful academy teams then we would be in the same position as Wigan saints Leeds are in now, but the main point I'm trying to make is that St Helens Wigan and Leeds got on the success train a long time before any salary cap was brought in and this have them a platform for them to build their own talent, how do you expect a club like Salford to do this now with a salary cap in place? They simply couldn't it would take them roughly 10 years to just catch up with the BIG FOUR. And this is precisely where no other big money investors will invest in Rugby League because they know it's near enough a closed shop!

Just look at the salary cap now, all home grown players only count as a % of their real figure, this only benifits the clubs who have had long periods of success and the time to develop their own, what should Salford do just wait 10 years until our youth system bears fruit and in the mean time stay average? While Wigan (prime example) who prodominanty won trophies through being the richest club in the past also in that time had the time to set up their youth systems and scouting networks for future gain.

And people wonder why there has only ever been four yes FOUR! Teams out of 12/14 to ever win the top flight league in the last 19 years! And you wonder why Union are making us look a laughing stock!

Re: Sale Sharks & Salford Red Devils to play cross-code fixt : Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:53 pm  

Mike87 wrote:

Just look at the salary cap now, all home grown players only count as a % of their real figure, this only benifits the clubs who have had long periods of success and the time to develop their own, what should Salford do just wait 10 years until our youth system bears fruit and in the mean time stay average? While Wigan (prime example) who prodominanty won trophies through being the richest club in the past also in that time had the time to set up their youth systems and scouting networks for future gain.

I heard all those arguments 5 years ago from Warrington fans and "moranovich" and it's funny how they don't go on about it any more - do you think Warrington are less ambitious then they were 5 years ago?

But the bit I've quoted is what gets me - you won't be mediocre, you'll still be spending full cap. In reality the 100k rule is going to affect a handful of players. And the players that are, are a credit to their clubs. Do you not agree?

You don't need success for good scouting and development - the likes of Everton and Southampton haven't seen a sniff of a trophy in years but still manage to produce some of the best.

Also "the richest club" went bust. So it didn't work out too well.

Re: Sale Sharks & Salford Red Devils to play cross-code fixt : Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:04 pm  

Homegrown players does not equate to long periods of success. Castleford are bringing through some quality youngsters and have had absolutely no success that I can recall, it's about long term planning, investment in youth and development of youth. I like Koukash a lot but I wish he'd just stop going on about the marquee player and instead of topping up an Aussies pension fund, plow that money into grass roots and youth development in the Manchester area. There's more than enough talent to be working with, I know from first hand experience that that are some kids in Manchester with the potential to be special, they just need a pathway to do so.