Re: Swift : Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:38 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

Love how people say Wello played well because he scored again. His try was the easiest anyone could ever score and was superb work by Flannery.

Not sure but didn,t Wello do a 1-2 with Flannery, Wello short ball to Flannery then Flannery from being tackled short ball to Wello.
Thought Wello did other things well escaping twice from the in goal area, good support play. Makinson needs to follow Wellens when returning the ball, there was a couple of chances of an offload but Makinson couldn,t read the possible play.
Hope Brown works quickly on improving Lomax, Makinson, Swifts game awareness.

Re: Swift : Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:09 pm  

Wellens must have really p!ssed Saddened off when he refused to sign his autograph book.

Re: Swift : Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:36 pm  

St Lexus wrote:

Wellens must have really p!ssed Saddened off when he refused to sign his autograph book.

I love Wello, but I just feel like the club is stuck in a time warp. For every other club in Rugby League the fullback position has changed. It is no longer the Rugby League equivalent of the goalkeeper in football. The fullback is not there purely to catch high balls and be the last line of defense like it used to be. Saints fans are stuck in that mentality, so willing to gloss over Wello's glaring failings by comforting themselves with his ability to catch and the odd tackle he makes. Wello, as is the case with all our players, is rated by the fans because he doesn't make many mistakes, not because he does do positive things.

The fullback is now arguably the most important attacking player after the scrumhalf. The 7 organises and schemes, but the fullback is the one who has the ability to be unpredictable. Good fullbacks can chime into the line literally anywhere they like, making lining up a defense incredibly difficult. They are also like a third halfback, with the ball skills to act as a third pivot in the attacking line. They are meant to attack from around the ruck from deep and on the fringes further up the field. The most important atttibutes for a fullback are now pace, the ability to chime into the attack and passing. Another vital aspect is bringing the ball back. Teams like Cas, Huddersfield, Warrington etc will get a 20 metre headstart on us, simply from their fullback being able to a) get to the ball quickly and b) run it back quickly. When you compound this with our complete lack of a kicking game and we're making our pack work overtime.

But hey ho, let's all bury our heads in the sand and keep telling ourselves we're great. Some of the Saints fans are as delusional as whoever writes Eamon's matchday magazine column.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:03 am  

Saddened I agree that Wellens is not what he used to be, but you can't let that blinker you to the good things he does. In addition to the Judder mans examples. There was also the makinson try down in the east corner. At the play the ball, Wello read the numbers well and ran from one side of the play the ball as he had seen that there was an overlap out wide. He had got into position and whipped a cracking ball out wide missing out 2 players to get Makinson in.

That's the type of thing our supposes halfbacks should be doing, ie reading the game and then moving around the field and selecting the correct option ie a long cut out pass to give us the best oppertunity of scoring.

Wello was on form yesterday and whether we think it's a one off or not, we should not let an agenda get in the way of congratulating a player when they have had a good game. Most of the week we spend time having a go at the club and the players, but surely after a match we can give credit were it's due.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:10 am  

I think the critism of Wellens early in the season was justified but over the last 10 games or so has had a big contribution to our winning performances.
I,m not really into this myth of a full back needs to be quick to run the ball back, I,ve watched how his possible replacement Makinson runs the ball back from deep, he does a lot of cross field running at fast pace but doesn,t really make any more metres than Wello.
Wilkin and Wello get a fair bit of stick from fans on here, but the fact is they are not error free but really hold the team together, both of these are also getting more involved in the build up of trys due to the absence of our quality half back play.
Wello is having one of the best seasons for trys scored and I should imagine his stat of try assists is high as well, if we have a replacement who is a better overall player then Yes replace him, in reality we don,t because there is a lot more to consider other than running the ball back and making a further 10 metres.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:03 am  

I dont understand this constant criticism of Wellens and the thought that pretty much any player with a bit of speed can play better at fullback.
There was never any of this criticism 5 years ago even though his game hasnt changed that much over that time.So what has changed in that time since there were always fullbacks who were better attacking than defending?
There is one thing to my mind that has set peoples expectations to be higher than they previously were and that is the ability of Tomkins. The way that he plays at fullback isnt a new thing - but it is by a British player - the bar was set by Slater but before him there were any number of other fullbacks who were doing the same thing - they just werent as good at it - Webb, Hodgson, Greenshields are examples of these.
You can go even further back and look at the two different styles of fullback play players such as Dave Lyon, Alan Tait all played a far more attacking style - but it was always at the expense of their other fullback skills, tackling, positional sense, Radlinski took it a step further by also having an all round game, we even tried Alan Hunte at fullback who looked really good for about 2 games till other teams realised he wasnt a natural fullback.

The point I am trying to make is that not only do you need a player who is fast, evasive with handling skills of a halfback to emulate the way Tomkins and Slater play - but you also need good halfbacks to create that space for them to exploite who also in turn need a dominant pack. It was evident in the most recent defeats for Wigan that without the last 2 the first doesnt show up. It simply will not work just changing the fullback.

The simple fact of the matter is that from the team we have right now we can either

Play Wellens as the best fullback we have at the club

Play Lomax there but we are then left with no halfback with the skill to produce space - we would also weaken our structure as he would need to learn the role

Put Makinson/Swift/any other outside back there who dont have the handling skills and would take a couple of years to fully understand the full backs role (Tomkins made the transition from halfback to fullback with the 1:1 coaching of Radlinski - that sped up the process) and may never be as good as Wellens is right now.

Bring in someone from outside who already has the required attributes the cost and just who would that be seem to be limiting factors to this.

There are anumber of clubs who have changed their option at fullback this year - most of who are not getting the results they would like - Hull, Huddersfield, Cas, Widnes, Bradford. And others who are getting some success - Leeds.

A blinkered view of a particular individual doesnt resolve the problems we may have.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:13 am  

Can you lot tell me what Wellens does exactly? Is it just the fact that he doesn't drop bombs very often that makes you think he'd be better at fullback than Hohaia (A world cup winning fullback), Makinson, Swift or even Gaskell or Lomax? Is it just the absence of errors that makes you feel comfortable with him there?

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:30 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

Can you lot tell me what Wellens does exactly? Is it just the fact that he doesn't drop bombs very often that makes you think he'd be better at fullback than Hohaia (A world cup winning fullback), Makinson, Swift or even Gaskell or Lomax? Is it just the absence of errors that makes you feel comfortable with him there?

The problem at the club is that we can,t speed up the development process of our young promising players quick enough especially in the important pivotal positions. Wello is still our best all round full back and offers experience, direction, he reads the game well for the next defensive/offence plays.
We could throw Swift or Makinson in at full back but that would mean of the main pivotable positions 1,6,7,9,13 we only have Roby with the necessary skillset to consistently trouble the opposition.
Historically when our full back loses pace they usually spend the latter years in the pack, times have changed I suppose.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:36 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

Besides, I'm sure our delightful coach will give Swift's backside a good kicking, as he apparently does to our young players.

Apparently, eh? So, in other words, you made it up.

Re: Swift : Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:51 pm  

JonB95 wrote: Apparently, eh? So, in other words, you made it up. Erm, no.

JonB95 wrote: Apparently, eh? So, in other words, you made it up. Erm, no.