Re: Perhaps our future is mid table for a few years? : Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:52 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

Some people talk tosh and on this occasion the OP is talking tosh.

Agreed. How losing a player that has hardly featured can cost you 5 league places, I don't know.

McGuire and, to a lesser extend, Brown and Smith have proved the most inportant member of your squad is your coach.
Royston had a poor start, but imo has brought some plus points. I reckon if he makes a decent off season without any hiccups we could be in with a good chance next year.

Regarding Graham going, that's a much bigger blow, but the pack should be able(forced) to share his laod more. LMS has improved as he's settled in and I'd expect Clough to really step up as our solid metre maker next year.

Re: Perhaps our future is mid table for a few years? : Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:12 am  

Look we have a salary cap in place in our sport which means there is no reason why we can't compete at the top level providing we continue to bring youngsters through. We are not being outbid by other teams (Pryce going to Catalans is more than just a simple outbidding exercise), except perhaps Warrington who appear to be happy to pay transfer fees, however I don't see many other teams going down that route to success. Most teams appear happy to put their faith in the youngsters, including Warrington, and rightfully so.

There is no reason why we can't compete at the top level unless our team development fails, which given its pedigree over the past twenty years would be a surprise. If we are not spending up to the cap we are deluding ourselves when our turnover is more than capable of supporting a full cap spend as it currently stands.

The salary cap works both ways which is something people seem to be forgetting. It means that you can go down as well as up but it doesn't mean that you write off two to three seasons at a time based on whatever hunch it is you're using as your evidence. As we've seen in Australia you can be down near the bottom one year and then right up there the next and vice versa.

It's amazing how invincible people seem to think Wigoon and Warrington are when take Tomkins and Briers out of either side and they are immediately beatable. Why are people looking at those teams and writing us off completely? I've never heard such nonsense and I am a person who still has concerns about our inability to defend under Simmons. Get your heads in order Saints fans because you're embarrassing us.

Re: Perhaps our future is mid table for a few years? : Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:33 am  

McClennan wrote:

Look we have a salary cap in place in our sport which means there is no reason why we can't compete at the top level providing we continue to bring youngsters through. We are not being outbid by other teams (Pryce going to Catalans is more than just a simple outbidding exercise), except perhaps Warrington who appear to be happy to pay transfer fees, however I don't see many other teams going down that route to success. Most teams appear happy to put their faith in the youngsters, including Warrington, and rightfully so.

There is no reason why we can't compete at the top level unless our team development fails, which given its pedigree over the past twenty years would be a surprise. If we are not spending up to the cap we are deluding ourselves when our turnover is more than capable of supporting a full cap spend as it currently stands.

The salary cap works both ways which is something people seem to be forgetting. It means that you can go down as well as up but it doesn't mean that you write off two to three seasons at a time based on whatever hunch it is you're using as your evidence. As we've seen in Australia you can be down near the bottom one year and then right up there the next and vice versa.

It's amazing how invincible people seem to think Wigoon and Warrington are when take Tomkins and Briers out of either side and they are immediately beatable. Why are people looking at those teams and writing us off completely? I've never heard such nonsense and I am a person who still has concerns about our inability to defend under Simmons. Get your heads in order Saints fans because you're embarrassing us.

Spot on post Mike but I would say that Monaghan was the key man for the Wire.

People, including the morons at Red Hall, seem to think that the salary cap makes everyone equal when infact it does the opposite. Clubs with strong junior systems have a clear advantage. In the old days you could just buy players if your juniors were not up to scratch (like Man City in the Premiership)

It is no surprise that clubs like ourselves and Wigan are as strong as ever. Other clubs that bring in a young player now and then but historically depend on signings have struggled such as Bradford. As long at we stick with developing juniors and not just filling up our side with expensive aussies then we will continue to be one of the top 2/3 teams in the league.

Re: Perhaps our future is mid table for a few years? : Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:22 pm  

Noel Cleal wrote:

People, including the morons at Red Hall, seem to think that the salary cap makes everyone equal when infact it does the opposite. Clubs with strong junior systems have a clear advantage.

Superb! That's pretty much exactly what we want, isn't it?

We have all our clubs busting a gut to constantly improve their youth development systems!

Re: Perhaps our future is mid table for a few years? : Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:21 pm  

Hohaia
Makinson/Gardner
Shenton
Meli
Foster
Wheeler/Gaskell
Lomax
Perry
Roby
Puletua
Soliola
Laffranchi
Wilkin

LMS
Clough
Flanagan/Flannery
Moore

This is a team that's very capable of competing for top spot. We might struggle with injuries but still have a lot of experienced players and young players who can come in and do a job. Stop with the doom and gloom all the time!

Re: Perhaps our future is mid table for a few years? : Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:25 pm  

phew some sense at last pryce and eastmond have not made us top three so losing them will not drop us to seventh

Re: Perhaps our future is mid table for a few years? : Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:07 pm  

I am going out on a limb here and agreeing - at least in part - with the OP.

What I'm guessing the OP is on about is the loss of three of our best players with no-one of similar stature replacing them (I remain to be convinced about Lance and the others).
I don't think Gaskell is good enough (yet) at SO and lacks something in defence and hitting the line. Oppostion would be more worried about facing a fit pryce than a fit gaskell.

How this pans out with regards to our 2012 league position obviously remains to be seen but I personally think the team is going backwards for at least next season by the end of which hopefully our younger players will have gained more experience and suffer fewer injuries.

Re: Perhaps our future is mid table for a few years? : Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:20 pm  

saint at wire wrote:

I am going out on a limb here and agreeing - at least in part - with the OP.

What I'm guessing the OP is on about is the loss of three of our best players with no-one of similar stature replacing them (I remain to be convinced about Lance and the others).
I don't think Gaskell is good enough (yet) at SO and lacks something in defence and hitting the line. Oppostion would be more worried about facing a fit pryce than a fit gaskell.

How this pans out with regards to our 2012 league position obviously remains to be seen but I personally think the team is going backwards for at least next season by the end of which hopefully our younger players will have gained more experience and suffer fewer injuries.

but how does losing pryce lower our league position? he's had no bearing on it this year. hence we would not be going backwards just standing still. this is of course based on leon being some kind of player that creates for us. for me pryce's best years where when he played off the back of long. he did not really alter the game against wigan our most crucial this year.

yes he was only a few weeks back. but maybe he's been as good as he can get?

Re: Perhaps our future is mid table for a few years? : Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:29 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

but how does losing pryce lower our league position? he's had no bearing on it this year. hence we would not be going backwards just standing still. this is of course based on leon being some kind of player that creates for us. for me pryce's best years where when he played off the back of long. he did not really alter the game against wigan our most crucial this year.

yes he was only a few weeks back. but maybe he's been as good as he can get?

We're weaker next year no doubt about it and without a couple of new faces, that won't change. Graham in particular is a big loss. But, apart from Catalans no other side has really improved their side dramatically which should ensure we'll be top 4. Wigan and Wire still the best two sides.

Re: Perhaps our future is mid table for a few years? : Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:45 pm  

Still a top 4 team for me next year. Lomax and Gaskell will be better players next season and if all our new signings play to there full potential then can,t see why we should,t be a bigger force next year.
Being in our new stadium should have some effect on team performance especially if they play in front of 12000 fans.
As long as we don,t go through another enormous injury crisis I,m reasonably optimistic that we will still be challenging for honours as usual.
Every season for the last 3 years pundits have been putting the club outside the top 4, but saints always bounce back it's in there super league DNA.