Re: Simmons Or Anderson? : Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:48 pm  

DA Had got a team off the back of millward great attacking tatics and added defenece to the game. Plus most of the team was in the prime.

Re: Simmons Or Anderson? : Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:53 pm  

Simmons has won nothing.

Spends all his time eating kit kats in his witch's hat and posting on twitter.

Re: Simmons Or Anderson? : Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:46 pm  

Rommel wrote:

I'd rather have Simmons over Potter and we haven't even played a game yet

After the mass contract-gate in the next couple of years. I can see Potter's stock rising high. What he achieved last year is amazing. He created a good team and blooded a lot of youngsters, who will now be ready for the call up to the first team.

Saints fans are facing losing Graham, Pryce and Eastmond next year and i think the Lomaxs and Fosters are coming on strong.

You must also remember how far he got saints last year. I would say he did arguably the best job out of the league except for M.M and maybe T.S

Semi's of CC (better than Wigan)
Grand final (better than Warrington (through gritted teeth) and Leeds)
second in the league, above Warrington (gritted teeth again) and Leeds

Re: Simmons Or Anderson? : Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:23 pm  

Saint Jamie B wrote:

Now i used to be a massive fan of Daniel Anderson and im just wondering if Simmons is any good? iv not heard of him before ( Due to my lack of knowledge of NRL ) but IMO Anderson was fantastic and i didn't like Potter but do we think Simmons can lead us to play off victory?

I was also a massive fan of Daniel Anderson. But I was a massive fan of Basil too. They were very different coaches who brought out different strengths in Saints. I was no fan of Potter and am glad to see him gone. Like you, I know little about Simmons but I like what he's done to Jon Wilkin! If our team all look leaner and fitter this season then that will be one score in Simmons' favour. However, I'm hoping he develops our players' skill sets so that we can see a little more of the old entertainers style rugby league returning. But I don't expect too much of that because unfortunately RL has moved on to more set plays and such like. I would also like to see a steely defence return as that gives us a much better chance. We might have had the best attack in terms of points last season but our leaky defence, when compared to the Anderson years, cost us in points and energy. I'd also like to see us far, far more disciplined with ball in hand. We were terrible in some matches, unable to hold on to the damn ball. Ridiculous.

I still dream of watching Saints win a Grand Final - I've not managed it yet in the whole of Superleague (terrible timing). But only time will tell with Simmons as to whether or not he is the right man for the job. Interesting times ahead!

Re: Simmons Or Anderson? : Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:17 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

I was also a massive fan of Daniel Anderson.

DA took a while to win me over completely. We were dumped out of the cup very uncerimoniously by Hull in his first few games and when they beat us by 1 point at KR (cooke drop goal) in the league I was haunted by the words of a poster who'd proclaimed he wasn't a coach to bring trophies in. Mind you, I also said that it wouldn't matter so much as long as I didn't have to drive home from Odsal/Headingly twice a year after a 60 point drubbing that Basil used to get us. He proved me wrong though and really pulled things together in 2006 and won plenty of trophies for us, even if a couple of GF defeats stick in the throat.

But I was a massive fan of Basil too. They were very different coaches who brought out different strengths in Saints.

I, like most, got swept along in the wave of enthusiasm that Millward arrived with. He certainly had some strengths and gave us some great memories, but I do think his performance declined throughout his years here. He was not restricted by the salary cap, had an extrodinary playing roster and inhertited a squad that had honed its mental toughness and defence under Ellery Hanley.
Rumour had it that he wouldn't give a young player the time of day until they'd become a 1st teamer, and desperation signings like Leon Felton and Heath Cruikshank make you wonder what he was thinking at times.
He had his plus points, but in a salary capped competetion, I wouldn't like him at my club.

I was no fan of Potter and am glad to see him gone.

My feeling on Potter were also mixed. I would often argue for him against your complaints as I felt on the whole you and his other detractors were unfair. He did a lot of good, we always finished in a decent position and obviously getting to the GF is an acheivement in itself. We were top scorers last year - not bad for (and I quote) "a team with a worse back line than wakefield". It was a difficult time for the squad and he's guided us through well, blooding some promising youngsters along the way.
My complaints were that sometimes (normally towards the end of the season) we seemed clueless - how many times did we end up with someone like Jammer kicking on the final play? A real no-show in the GF against wigan was a pretty gutwrenching way for him to finish up.
I also have convinced myself our terrible injury jinx, especially with the young backs, were a product of a either generally poor conditioning regeime or an attempt to concentrate on bulk rather than fitness/athletisism.
I think speccies from any other club probably thinks he did a good job. We're just a little spoilt at Saints. People may not have rated him, but I reckon we'd have had a much worse time if Basil had been in charge for the last 2 years.

If our team all look leaner and fitter this season then that will be one score in Simmons' favour.

Assuming it translates to less injuries and doesn't affect our go forward, i agree. I too thought we generally looked in poor shape.

I'm hoping he develops our players' skill sets so that we can see a little more of the old entertainers style rugby league returning. But I don't expect too much of that because unfortunately RL has moved on to more set plays and such like.

RL may not be as free flowing as 10 years ago, but we (compared to other clubs) relied far to much on grubbers close to the line or barging over with a big forward from 1 yard. Wigan showed this year that slick hands out wide still gives the rightful benefits.
Apparently W.Tigers were reknown for their attack, so hopefully some of that with transfer with Sizzler.

Better defence...

A given

I'd also like to see us far, far more disciplined with ball in hand. We were terrible in some matches, unable to hold on to the damn ball. Ridiculous.

If people want more flowing rugby, perhaps handling errors will be expected - barring any atrocious ball retention, the key for me is the quality of the structure when we do have the ball.

Re: Simmons Or Anderson? : Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:04 pm  

I think Anderson and Potter were fairly similar coaches really. They both placed emphasis on defence and on a big pack of forwards, although it's fair to say DA had us better organised and in better shape. Potter has overseen a fantastic period for our youth development though, and hasn't quite had the squad or the luck with injuries that DA had in 2006.

One of the reasons we've struggled to win grand finals is that when you place so much emphasis on the pack, in ordinary games you tend to dominate most teams up front to the extent that your backs, even if they're not that flashy or well drilled, tend to get plenty of room to move and do their thing. The problem is that teams in finals are so pumped up that it's unusual for one pack of forwards to completely dominate (exceptions in 2007 and 2010 noted), so you're suddenly in the alien position of being reliant on great kicking from your halves and special plays from your backs. Under DA and Potter we've generally been unable to come up with that, apart from in 06 when our pack was just ridiculous and we had Jamie Lyon.

If you think back to the late '90s and early 2000's, Bradford, with their massive pack, were usually more consistent than us throughout the year, and would often murder us in league matches, but when it came to the big finals our pack generally matched theirs through sheer adrenaline, and then we had enough flair in the halves and threequarters to see them off. We have been the equivalent of that Bradford side since 2007, and it's no coincidence that that side and this one were both coached by disciples of the Brian Smith school.

If Royce gets us fitter and better organised in the halves and three-quarters (in attack and defence), that will be progress. Hopefully if the likes of Eastmond, Wheeler and Lomax stay fit and progress we'll see a bit more excitement as well.

Re: Simmons Or Anderson? : Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:24 pm  

Anderson's time at Saints certainly fell well. You had the best squad in SL coupled with all your top players being in the prime of their careers. Don't get me wrong he looked a great coach, but everything was their already in place for him. All he had to do was the add the finishing touches, which will have been no mean feat, so credit to him for that.

As for Simmons how can he be judged? He's yet to coach the team in a competitive fixture. Saying that if Simmons were to get Saints to the GF and win it ahead of Wigan and Wire who in my opinion have better squads, then perhaps that could be considered a better achievement that Anderson's GF win's, when taking into account the personal both had at their disposal.

Re: Simmons Or Anderson? : Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:44 pm  

From a Leeds fan's POV. Like a lot of others have said the likes of Long, Cunningham, Wellens and Lyon were really firing for Anderson in 06. Was it also 06 that Graham and Roby came through or 07? Either way, the luck with injuries and managing to keep a lot of the strike players fit all year played a massive part.

Under Potter you seemed play less expansive rugby? Or maybe that's just because they were big games and it was percentages when we met. But the way he has managed to bring the young lads through has been something else. When Foster went off last year at Salford after been targetted and not coming up with the goods, Potter never lost faith and kept improving areas of his game and he loooked well towards the back end of the year. Lesser coaches would have had him back in the U21s again for the rest of the year.

Will be interesting to see if Simmons comes in and does a similar job to Milward for a couple of years with the young lads and really build it all up. Sport always tends to go in a cycle! I think that's clear to see at Leeds too, Powell got the foundations, Smith came in and was very good for us continuing the development of young players like McGuire, Burrow etc. The came McClennan who carried on that success fo a couple of years and really seemed to build team spirirt. Now I think we'll see McDermott trying to blood a lot of young lads because the likes of Senior, Sinfield, Buderus, Ali, JP, Leuluai etc aren't going to be around forever.

Re: Simmons Or Anderson? : Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:13 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

He proved me wrong though and really pulled things together in 2006 and won plenty of trophies for us, even if a couple of GF defeats stick in the throat.

I'm not sure he could have done any better, really! Was there anything left that we didn't win that year? Amazing. I guess there was only one way to go after 2006, wasn't there?

He had his plus points, but in a salary capped competetion, I wouldn't like him at my club.

He seems to be doing ok at Leigh, and they are salary capped. I'm sure he's matured since his days with us and learned more through his experience with Saints and elsewhere.

My feeling on Potter were also mixed. I would often argue for him against your complaints as I felt on the whole you and his other detractors were unfair. He did a lot of good, we always finished in a decent position and obviously getting to the GF is an acheivement in itself.

Thing is, though, we have been getting to the Grand Final for years now. Our team was plenty capable of getting to the Grand Final; it's winning the bloody thing that is the problem. And Potter really did screw up any chance we had of that by his personnel choices and playing rosta. I mean, asking two players to play together who had never played together before, and one only just back from injury, at a Grand Final? Only a twonk of the highest order would do that. I can't forgive him that. It wasn't the only reason why we lost but damn it, it didn't help, especially after all the mix and matching of the season necessitated by injury.

We were top scorers last year - not bad for (and I quote) "a team with a worse back line than wakefield".

We could barge, that's why, and only Wigan knew how to stop us. Which they did. It was also handy for Wigan that their coach had a tactical clue whereas ours was tactically clueless.

It was a difficult time for the squad and he's guided us through well, blooding some promising youngsters along the way.

It was a difficult time for the squad. As for the young players, he integrated them well enough (although at that stage in their careers most of the hard work had been done by others who came before Potter) but that is pretty much all I am willing to give him.

My complaints were that sometimes (normally towards the end of the season) we seemed clueless - how many times did we end up with someone like Jammer kicking on the final play?

Yup.

I also have convinced myself our terrible injury jinx, especially with the young backs, were a product of a either generally poor conditioning regeime or an attempt to concentrate on bulk rather than fitness/athletisism.

I agree. I didn't need to convince myself. Two seasons of it points to either the coach or the conditioner or both.

I think speccies from any other club probably thinks he did a good job. We're just a little spoilt at Saints.

Saints fans aren't spoiled. The perspective is very different when you have watched accurate, fast passing; secure handling; speedy, attractive play; imagination with ball in hand; rock solid defence. Our goal kicking was off for a few years and that was really the only aspect of our game that improved, and that was because Foster started to play! Potter turned us into dumplings who could only score from 10m out. If Pryce wasn't on the field - and Pryce at present seems to be the only Saints player with enough guile and skill to pull off independent moves or at least remember set moves independently! - then we were pretty damn dull to watch overall during Potter's tenure. It is hard to see a good team undone, especially when you know the players are capable of more, and the chance of success drift away. But I'm quite sure most Saints' fans' expectations are now lower than they have been in years, I know mine are! So I'm quite sure few Saints fans will be making any kind of claims in the season ahead.

Apparently W.Tigers were reknown for their attack, so hopefully some of that with transfer with Sizzler.

I hope so.

Re: Simmons Or Anderson? : Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:27 pm  

I'm probably missing the finery of good coaching, but Royce 'Sizzler' Simmons has got a better sounding name than all his predecessors back to Ellery so, on that score alone, I think he'll prove better than DA.

Just think of the headlines: Saints Rolls over Wigan; Royce over the Rovers; Saints' Winged Lad-ees win at Headingley.

I rest my flaky case.