Re: Saddened!'s Grand Final review : Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:01 pm  

RIGSBY wrote:

its like bleedin groundhog day on here for the last 4 years.
same discussion on why we did our (expected) usuall loss in the grand final.

You've been in the last five finals. Consistently one of the best teams in SL.
And you moan because you didn't win them all. Some people are never satisfied.

Re: Saddened!'s Grand Final review : Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:03 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

I think everyone with an ounce of sense knew the outcome of tonights game once it was decided which teams were competing. Our season ended the day Leon Pryce was confirmed to be out for the season. He is our best player by an enormous distance and although Cunningham has led the team magnificently we were never going to have enough creativity to break down Wigan's defense at Old Trafford. Throw in Custard Creme Eastmond getting a season ending injury through being brought back too soon against the Giants and it was never going to be a nice farewell for Keiron.

Before I start the post mortem let me congratulate Wigan. Their defense tonight was absolutely magnificent and the likes of Leuleuai and Tomkins were the difference tonight. Their coach deserves the credit for that season they've just had. He has come into Super League and has obviously done his homework. Defense like that can win you titles if executed with the professionalism and commitment Wigan do. They get 3 or 4 into every tackle and try to hurt the ball carrier, allowing them to dominate the play the ball and deny any go forward at all to the opposition, which has always been pretty key in Super League. Add to that some very well organised attacking moves (Which are all different than the trash Noble had them doing) and the individual brilliance of Tomkins and they thoroughly deserve the title this year. Having said that I think the calls that they will now dominate the next 5 years are way off. Those players are not all that fantastic it's the style of play, the organisation and the defending that has seen them win this season. The gang tackling, the intensity in defense and the resulting dominance of the PTB. These things IMO will sweep through the game as trends, every club in Super League will be trying to play like that next season.

As for us, hopefully the number of changes will be a positive. New coach, several new faces with some more to come surely with a few more rumoured to be leaving/having no contract extension signed. Today was typical Potter if I'm honest. We competed well and were certainly in the game throughout the second half, one try before the 65 minute mark would have made it very interesting. The pack IMO did well, resisting the bully boy tactics, doing well in completing the sets and we had enough chances to win that game tonight despite the lack of half backs. Had Pryce played we would have won, simple as that, had Pryce and Eastmond played we would have won quite comfortably. Neither play we lose. It was always going to be like that.

For what it's worth now I think Potter has done a remarkable job in getting that squad to the Grand Final, despite us not having Eastmond for most of the season and having no half backs for the business end of the season. He made mistakes tonight as he has done throughout his time here. His decision to leave Gardner out is a mystery to me. He may be awful, but he's very solid defensively and he wouldn't have been left floundering for those tries down the left tonight. As soon as I saw the bench I knew it was not going to end well, that must be the weakest bench any side has ever fielded in a Grand Final. Three kids and an interchange hooker? It's not going to work. Potter's interchanges were also very poor, leaving Cunningham and Graham off the field for far too long at the crucial stage either side of half time where the game was won and lost. Potter must be congratulated for his role at the club, he has done well. Rather than a Wigan/Bradford esque fall from grace after our legendary players slowly departed we have remained competitive. People may say we've bottled the last four finals, but we've not. We've just been the second best team in Super League throughout. We are now through our rebuilding phase and will be competitive next year if they make another signing or two (Or resign Flannery and Meli). We will not win anything again but we won't be too far off. Even though it hurts, it's better to be second than dropping right down the table whilst rebuilding I guess?

Well done Wigan

Thanks Mick and all the departing players for your efforts and especially KC, who retires beaten in battle but having won the war.

Re: Saddened!'s Grand Final review : Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:08 pm  

Sorry, but to say if Pryce had played you would have won is the biggest pile of tosh I've ever read. After all, if Richards hadn't been injured, we'd have won by a lot more...

Re: Saddened!'s Grand Final review : Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:10 pm  

Madderzahatter wrote:

Sorry, but to say if Pryce had played you would have won is the biggest pile of tosh I've ever read. After all, if Richards hadn't been injured, we'd have won by a lot more...

And if saints was wigan we would have won.

Re: Saddened!'s Grand Final review : Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:27 pm  

You have done well to finish 2nd and get to a GF, for some clubs that is quite an achievement.

With the backbone of Sculthorpe, Long and Cunningham now gone I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth with you getting to a GF. Perry, Shenton and LMS are all good players but they aren't the type of players like the named above who could produce magic when it mattered, a period of rebuilding for Saints for the next good few years I think and I would put Lomax at 1 next year with Wellens at 13.

Re: Saddened!'s Grand Final review : Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:42 pm  

For someone who is normally such a negative poster, this is an amazingly positive post.

1) To lose in four consecutive finals of any description is a stigma that will live us for the rest of our lives. No two ways about it. We will always be haunted by this.

2) In the last four Grand Finals and two Challenge Cup Semis, we have lost all six. In four of those games we were favourites yet lost them all. There are no excuses for that, Bookies are not daft. We were not favourites for nothing. Our players haven't got the bottle when it matters. We can beat these teams in your average league game, but come the crunch, they haven't got it.

3) You say the forwards did not let us down. They were shit. Graham was garbage, choosing to spend all game mouthing off to the officials rather than knuckling down and doing the job. No other forward hurt them at all. Only Roby came out with any semi credit.

4) If anyone thinks one half back would have made a difference then they are severely deluded. None of the big game players turned up. Collectively we picked the big game to fall to pieces again. We have no pace whatsoever. In fact, we must be the slowest team in the competition. Pryce and Eastmond cannot win a game alone. Their thirteen totally outplayed our thirteen. If you believe that those two would have turned it when the other eleven (fifteen) were collectively standing around looking like startled rabbits, then I really do despair. They beat us because they are a better team across the board.

5) What's all this crap about Potter having done well? He has only brought youngsters through because he had no bugger else to pick. Potter's motivational and tactical skills were clueless at times. To play a Grand Final against the best team in the competition and then throw Lomax and Meli together in the left centre-wing combination when they have never played together before shows stupidity and naivety beyond belief.

6) How can you say we haven't bottled a final? yes, we were second best in 2009 and 2010 but the 2010 side was a damned sight better than the one that turned up last night. In 2007 and 2008 you are saying we were inferior to Leeds? 2007 is questionable but 2008 is not. We were way above everyone that year and bottled it big time when it come to the crunch.

Re: Saddened!'s Grand Final review : Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:26 am  

I'm not sure I'm as panglossian as Saddened. Ultimately, I think he's right that yesterday we played like a team with no halfbacks, and that's what we were. We had nobody steering us round the pitch, and so ended up playing a very one-dimensional game. Effectively, our only attack relied on a fast PTB and hoping Roby would make a break that someone could support. Otherwise, the only evidence of a planned move was Graham passing just before he hit the line, but that happened so often that the Wigan defence was reding it every time. Matty Smith's star was burnished by the comedy commentators in the play-offs, but ultimately showed yesterday why he's been sold to Salford. Industrious, but not great.

We were also a team with only one real threequarter out of 4 (Gidley), and he's getting on a fair bit and hasn't been an attacking force for 2 years now. Meli, Flannery and Soliola are all barging second-row types, not real centres or elusive speedy wingers. Contrast the difference in threat when Wigan went wide to Gleeson, with the absence of threat when Saints chucked it slowly out in either direction.

So basically we were left with a pack who did, to be fair, more or less match the Pie pack in the middle, but a back division from 1-7 who were inferior, and it showed, which is why the pies won.

I think most of what D.D. posted was OTT, understandably after the result, but still OTT. However, one area I do agree on is that I think we're in danger of becoming a team of bottlers with a crucial lack of self-belief in the big games. Losing becomes a habit, just as winning does, and I thought that there was a real lack of serious aggression in the side yesterday. That usually means that the players don't expect to be able to win. What Graham showed was frustration, not aggression. Two different things. Did the Saints forwards pull off a big hit in the whole match ? Where was the gang tackling ? Did any of the backs manage to drive anyone into touch ? The team seemed to have been beaten before they took to the pitch. That's something the next coach has to rectify.

Re: Saddened!'s Grand Final review : Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:31 am  

D.D. wrote:

1) To lose in four consecutive finals of any description is a stigma that will live us for the rest of our lives. No two ways about it. We will always be haunted by this.

I think that just about sums it up. From now on we will always be remembered as the team that lost four finals in a row. It will go on to define our club not just in this period but in general.

We know the reasons why (rain, Meli, injuries, offside tries, no half backs, Potter) but they are all just lame excuses. In the world of Rugby League St Helens name is now synonymous with choking.

We are the equivalent of the early 90s Buffalo Bills. There are no positives.