Manchester Massacre : Tue May 29, 2012 12:41 am  

Lets all be honest the title sums up what happened yestersday perfectly. I went yesterday actually expecting us to get beat by such a margin and as it happened that feeling was made into reality, in honesty I thought the scoreline flattered us!!

I really don't mind us losing, it happens. But what I can't accept is a performance like what Saints put out against Wigan. Wigan are a good side, light years ahead of us at the moment but we just can't be as bad as we were made to look on Sunday. We were made to look amateurish at times with the contrast in quality between the two sides. The speed, skill and sheer will to win was so obvious to see. We look like a mid table side at the moment with the occassional standout performance and the unfortunate thing is I can't see that changing with the personel we currently have in the side.

Wellens - I was critical of Wellens early in the season for lack of pace but what worried me more was his missed tackle on Hock which led to his try. Would Hock have scored that try 3-4 years ago? No he wouldn't because Wellens wouldn't have missed the tackle. Hock ran stright at him more or less and went straight through him. I really hope it's his last year, he doesn't deserve to be in this situation for everything he has done for this club. The guy is a legend and I don't want his reputation to be tarnished by going on longer than he should.

Lomax - I really do feel sorry for this kid. I like him in the halves (seems like I'm on my own in thinking this) but I see him more of a tradional 6, a runner, support player with the skill to put people through gaps. I don't get this talk of him being a 9 or 1 because he has never played there to warrant that argument. He has played on the wing and done a resonable job in taking the high ball and he has pretty good pace, but he has never really struck me as a full back. It's just my opinion but he wasn't voted the best young player in Super League last year in the halves for no reason. He just needs help from a good 7 who can organise and take the majority of the tactical play away from him and let him play with freedom and instinct. At the moment he is doing everything on the field for the side, with no help from Hohaia and it's way to much, so as a result his performances are slightly slipping. If we do get an organiser in the halves to help him watch him flourish.

The pack - are they just scared of Wigan? No other side is as aggreesive as them in Super League. They run hard and hit harder, they dominated Saints' pack and when it gets a bit violent they exert this even further by winning the fight - Mossop saw to that!!! From minute one yesterday Saints were over powered in every collison, they had no answer and at times it felt like Saints knew this. We need aggreesive players to match Wigan because if we lose the middle of the field it has a knock on effect as we then lose Roby. When we have played Wigan this season has anyone noticed James Roby? I haven't. He has no space to work because his pack is getting beaten up. We won't beat Wigan again until this changes.

I was going to say something on Lance Hohaia but what's the point???? I will say one thing though for the future. If he does get moved positions I hope he doesn't get used at 9 because from what I see of him at acting half, his distribution is just as bad as it is in open field. Watch him when he is filling in at times. The ball gets played, he picks it up, starts to stand up right, looks at who he is passing to, then pauses and then releases the ball - he has never passed off the floor once!!

Fans - I sometimes despair with some of our fans at times. I do actually wonder sometimes if they know the rules or have any rugby knowledge. Everyone pays their money and are more than entitled to their opinion but people just scream at everything, thinking that because the opposition get a penalty then it surely must be a penalty for Saints next. We all make mistakes at times and the refferees are actually human and can't see everything and will miss things, it's part and parcel of sport. Chris Flannery could give away one of his usual obvious penalties and people scream at the ref - why not scream at Chris Flannery? I had a bloke near me yesterday - a saints fan. Screaming and foaming at the mouth at Fancis Meli for not catching a Gary Wheeler pass that was so far forward I had more chance of catching it from behind the sticks!!!!! It's just things like this that do my head in.

I'm down hearted as a Saints fan at the moment. I've missed two games all season and I'll be there at the weekend hoping for a reaction from the performance at the weekend, if not for us - the fans but for the players themselves. They need to dust themselves down, start again and realise that they are professional players for a great club and performances like that are just not acceptable.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Tue May 29, 2012 1:08 am  

Should be a Cracker as FC will want to bound back from the KR game.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Tue May 29, 2012 10:28 am  

Man of Steel wrote:

Lets all be honest the title sums up what happened yestersday perfectly. I went yesterday actually expecting us to get beat by such a margin and as it happened that feeling was made into reality, in honesty I thought the scoreline flattered us!!

I really don't mind us losing, it happens. But what I can't accept is a performance like what Saints put out against Wigan. Wigan are a good side, light years ahead of us at the moment but we just can't be as bad as we were made to look on Sunday. We were made to look amateurish at times with the contrast in quality between the two sides. The speed, skill and sheer will to win was so obvious to see. We look like a mid table side at the moment with the occassional standout performance and the unfortunate thing is I can't see that changing with the personel we currently have in the side.

Wellens - I was critical of Wellens early in the season for lack of pace but what worried me more was his missed tackle on Hock which led to his try. Would Hock have scored that try 3-4 years ago? No he wouldn't because Wellens wouldn't have missed the tackle. Hock ran stright at him more or less and went straight through him. I really hope it's his last year, he doesn't deserve to be in this situation for everything he has done for this club. The guy is a legend and I don't want his reputation to be tarnished by going on longer than he should.

Lomax - I really do feel sorry for this kid. I like him in the halves (seems like I'm on my own in thinking this) but I see him more of a tradional 6, a runner, support player with the skill to put people through gaps. I don't get this talk of him being a 9 or 1 because he has never played there to warrant that argument. He has played on the wing and done a resonable job in taking the high ball and he has pretty good pace, but he has never really struck me as a full back. It's just my opinion but he wasn't voted the best young player in Super League last year in the halves for no reason. He just needs help from a good 7 who can organise and take the majority of the tactical play away from him and let him play with freedom and instinct. At the moment he is doing everything on the field for the side, with no help from Hohaia and it's way to much, so as a result his performances are slightly slipping. If we do get an organiser in the halves to help him watch him flourish.

The pack - are they just scared of Wigan? No other side is as aggreesive as them in Super League. They run hard and hit harder, they dominated Saints' pack and when it gets a bit violent they exert this even further by winning the fight - Mossop saw to that!!! From minute one yesterday Saints were over powered in every collison, they had no answer and at times it felt like Saints knew this. We need aggreesive players to match Wigan because if we lose the middle of the field it has a knock on effect as we then lose Roby. When we have played Wigan this season has anyone noticed James Roby? I haven't. He has no space to work because his pack is getting beaten up. We won't beat Wigan again until this changes.

I was going to say something on Lance Hohaia but what's the point???? I will say one thing though for the future. If he does get moved positions I hope he doesn't get used at 9 because from what I see of him at acting half, his distribution is just as bad as it is in open field. Watch him when he is filling in at times. The ball gets played, he picks it up, starts to stand up right, looks at who he is passing to, then pauses and then releases the ball - he has never passed off the floor once!!

Fans - I sometimes despair with some of our fans at times. I do actually wonder sometimes if they know the rules or have any rugby knowledge. Everyone pays their money and are more than entitled to their opinion but people just scream at everything, thinking that because the opposition get a penalty then it surely must be a penalty for Saints next. We all make mistakes at times and the refferees are actually human and can't see everything and will miss things, it's part and parcel of sport. Chris Flannery could give away one of his usual obvious penalties and people scream at the ref - why not scream at Chris Flannery? I had a bloke near me yesterday - a saints fan. Screaming and foaming at the mouth at Fancis Meli for not catching a Gary Wheeler pass that was so far forward I had more chance of catching it from behind the sticks!!!!! It's just things like this that do my head in.

I'm down hearted as a Saints fan at the moment. I've missed two games all season and I'll be there at the weekend hoping for a reaction from the performance at the weekend, if not for us - the fans but for the players themselves. They need to dust themselves down, start again and realise that they are professional players for a great club and performances like that are just not acceptable.

Well said that guy!!

Re: Manchester Massacre : Tue May 29, 2012 4:43 pm  

Man of Steel wrote:

Lets all be honest the title sums up what happened yestersday perfectly. I went yesterday actually expecting us to get beat by such a margin and as it happened that feeling was made into reality, in honesty I thought the scoreline flattered us!!

I really don't mind us losing, it happens. But what I can't accept is a performance like what Saints put out against Wigan. Wigan are a good side, light years ahead of us at the moment but we just can't be as bad as we were made to look on Sunday. We were made to look amateurish at times with the contrast in quality between the two sides. The speed, skill and sheer will to win was so obvious to see. We look like a mid table side at the moment with the occassional standout performance and the unfortunate thing is I can't see that changing with the personel we currently have in the side.

Wellens - I was critical of Wellens early in the season for lack of pace but what worried me more was his missed tackle on Hock which led to his try. Would Hock have scored that try 3-4 years ago? No he wouldn't because Wellens wouldn't have missed the tackle. Hock ran stright at him more or less and went straight through him. I really hope it's his last year, he doesn't deserve to be in this situation for everything he has done for this club. The guy is a legend and I don't want his reputation to be tarnished by going on longer than he should.

Lomax - I really do feel sorry for this kid. I like him in the halves (seems like I'm on my own in thinking this) but I see him more of a tradional 6, a runner, support player with the skill to put people through gaps. I don't get this talk of him being a 9 or 1 because he has never played there to warrant that argument. He has played on the wing and done a resonable job in taking the high ball and he has pretty good pace, but he has never really struck me as a full back. It's just my opinion but he wasn't voted the best young player in Super League last year in the halves for no reason. He just needs help from a good 7 who can organise and take the majority of the tactical play away from him and let him play with freedom and instinct. At the moment he is doing everything on the field for the side, with no help from Hohaia and it's way to much, so as a result his performances are slightly slipping. If we do get an organiser in the halves to help him watch him flourish.

The pack - are they just scared of Wigan? No other side is as aggreesive as them in Super League. They run hard and hit harder, they dominated Saints' pack and when it gets a bit violent they exert this even further by winning the fight - Mossop saw to that!!! From minute one yesterday Saints were over powered in every collison, they had no answer and at times it felt like Saints knew this. We need aggreesive players to match Wigan because if we lose the middle of the field it has a knock on effect as we then lose Roby. When we have played Wigan this season has anyone noticed James Roby? I haven't. He has no space to work because his pack is getting beaten up. We won't beat Wigan again until this changes.

I was going to say something on Lance Hohaia but what's the point???? I will say one thing though for the future. If he does get moved positions I hope he doesn't get used at 9 because from what I see of him at acting half, his distribution is just as bad as it is in open field. Watch him when he is filling in at times. The ball gets played, he picks it up, starts to stand up right, looks at who he is passing to, then pauses and then releases the ball - he has never passed off the floor once!!

Fans - I sometimes despair with some of our fans at times. I do actually wonder sometimes if they know the rules or have any rugby knowledge. Everyone pays their money and are more than entitled to their opinion but people just scream at everything, thinking that because the opposition get a penalty then it surely must be a penalty for Saints next. We all make mistakes at times and the refferees are actually human and can't see everything and will miss things, it's part and parcel of sport. Chris Flannery could give away one of his usual obvious penalties and people scream at the ref - why not scream at Chris Flannery? I had a bloke near me yesterday - a saints fan. Screaming and foaming at the mouth at Fancis Meli for not catching a Gary Wheeler pass that was so far forward I had more chance of catching it from behind the sticks!!!!! It's just things like this that do my head in.

I'm down hearted as a Saints fan at the moment. I've missed two games all season and I'll be there at the weekend hoping for a reaction from the performance at the weekend, if not for us - the fans but for the players themselves. They need to dust themselves down, start again and realise that they are professional players for a great club and performances like that are just not acceptable.

Lomax actually made his debut at fullback against Wakefield at belle view. He had a decent game too considering his age.

I, however, fully agree with you that he is a stand-off. That has been his position since under 7's at Orrell St, James. Too many people on here say we need a stand-off. Me? I say we have one. It's a scrum half we need.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Tue May 29, 2012 4:59 pm  

Top Saint wrote:

Lomax actually made his debut at fullback against Wakefield at belle view. He had a decent game too considering his age.

I, however, fully agree with you that he is a stand-off. That has been his position since under 7's at Orrell St, James. Too many people on here say we need a stand-off. Me? I say we have one. It's a scrum half we need.

I knew there was a good chance that he had played there once. What I meant was that he hasn't played there on anything like a consistent basis to warrant being ear marked for full back.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Tue May 29, 2012 5:41 pm  

Man of Steel wrote:

I knew there was a good chance that he had played there once. What I meant was that he hasn't played there on anything like a consistent basis to warrant being ear marked for full back.

Fair point and I agree. I would rather see Lomax at stand-off with an organising scrum half. Lomax running wide of the ruck could be devastating with a good scrum half inside him. Twice the stand-off that Gaskell is IMO. Cue the we love Gaskell brigade.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Tue May 29, 2012 7:07 pm  

Top Saint wrote:

Fair point and I agree. I would rather see Lomax at stand-off with an organising scrum half. Lomax running wide of the ruck could be devastating with a good scrum half inside him. Twice the stand-off that Gaskell is IMO. Cue the we love Gaskell brigade.

You say that Lomax is twice the stand off Gaskell is but I've always thought that Gaskell is a traditional 7. I've always thought that they were the wrong way round. It's just a gut instinct of mine when I watch them play - Gaskell could do a job at 7 in my opinion.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Tue May 29, 2012 7:23 pm  

Man of Steel wrote:

You say that Lomax is twice the stand off Gaskell is but I've always thought that Gaskell is a traditional 7. I've always thought that they were the wrong way round. It's just a gut instinct of mine when I watch them play - Gaskell could do a job at 7 in my opinion.

Actually never thought of that. My main area of concern with regard to Gaskell is his poor decision making at the line of attack. He has a tendency to take the wrong option on far too many occasions for my liking. A move to scrum half would tie him to a much more rigid game plan and also give Lomax the extra width to run at the defence. Also the one positive area of Gaskells game, his kicking, could be used to more positive effect around the ruck.

Give it a try. It can't be any worse than Hohaia at stand-off.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Tue May 29, 2012 7:53 pm  

Man of Steel wrote:

You say that Lomax is twice the stand off Gaskell is but I've always thought that Gaskell is a traditional 7. I've always thought that they were the wrong way round.

Me too. In fact I thought Gaskell was a scrum half but I was corrected on here.

He sometimes goes for the dummy runner rather than passes behind when approaching the line but other than that he probably takes a wrong option about as often as most players.

Re: Manchester Massacre : Tue May 29, 2012 9:01 pm  

Top Saint wrote:

Actually never thought of that. My main area of concern with regard to Gaskell is his poor decision making at the line of attack. He has a tendency to take the wrong option on far too many occasions for my liking.

Give over. Gaskell's decision-making is a million miles ahead of anyone else's at the club. Yes, he's made mistakes. But all kids make mistakes. It's impossible not to make them if you're lacking experience.

Let's recall for a moment that Gaskell's distribution and kicking played a crucial role in us getting to the GF. Let's also recall that prior to the start of last season he had no experience whatsoever. The plan was to introduce him gradually to the first team (like Lomax and Wheeler). I doubt the club had any intention to give him more than half a dozen games until the Eastmond debacle dropped on us. Given our (unexpected) success I'd say his performances bordered upon the miraculous. Especially when you recall that it took Lomax TWO SEASONS (at least) to achieve a sufficient level of performance and consistency to command a regular first team shirt.