Re: Wire stats (look at your peril) : Sun May 25, 2014 7:01 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

But he does have ball handling skills and good footwork but nowhere to the extent of Scully and Gilmour. We can't ignore the fact that he is running second in the team for try assists and again second in the team for clean breaks.
Wilkin is very much involved in the second phase on our left hand side with a passing game, whilst Sia is working the right hand side with a power running game.
In my opinion his contribution is underestimated sometimes by fans on here, last year for instance we had no half backs up stepped Wilkin played an alien role and contributed to our climb up the table when we struggled to finish in the top 8. Wilkin is a utility player.

In my opinion Wilkins future replacement would be neither Flanagan or Thompson but...........Joe Greenwood

I don't doubt Wilkins contribution. For the sake of fairness, he's top of missed tackles (by a long way) AND has made the most errors as well. But stats don't tell the whole story.

For me, as a sport were moving away from individual spectacular plays, and there's much more focus on players who can contribute to a structure. Stats don't show how often Wilkin strays away from the role he's supposed to be playing, which imo contributes to periods where we race into a lead, and then rest on our lorels - nor how many misreads he makes in defence (he was responsible for huddersfields first try by misreading the play) - he's been making some great breaks at the moment, but I believe others (greenwood) could be on the end of the passes and do so as well.

We can all be very grateful of his ability to put his hand up last year and play every position under the sun - it makes him a great squad player, it doesn't mean he should be a first choice second rower. A back up halfback/lock maybe.

Re: Wire stats (look at your peril) : Sun May 25, 2014 7:06 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

But he does have ball handling skills and good footwork but nowhere to the extent of Scully and Gilmour. We can't ignore the fact that he is running second in the team for try assists and again second in the team for clean breaks.
Wilkin is very much involved in the second phase on our left hand side with a passing game, whilst Sia is working the right hand side with a power running game.
In my opinion his contribution is underestimated sometimes by fans on here, last year for instance we had no half backs up stepped Wilkin played an alien role and contributed to our climb up the table when we struggled to finish in the top 8. Wilkin is a utility player.

In my opinion Wilkins future replacement would be neither Flanagan or Thompson but...........Joe Greenwood

Wilkin was exceptional for us last year. He really stood up and took on the halfback role and did a great job. If we didn't have Wilkin I don't know what we would have done!

He was my player of the year by miles last year.

Re: Wire stats (look at your peril) : Sun May 25, 2014 7:20 pm  

St pete wrote:

Wilkin was exceptional for us last year. He really stood up and took on the halfback role and did a great job. If we didn't have Wilkin I don't know what we would have done!

He was my player of the year by miles last year.

That was last year. It's 2014 now and we have a proper scrum half who needs to be allowed to do his job, preferably with the same halfback partner from week to week, and that halfback partner should never be Wilkin.

Re: Wire stats (look at your peril) : Sun May 25, 2014 8:13 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

That was last year. It's 2014 now and we have a proper scrum half who needs to be allowed to do his job, preferably with the same halfback partner from week to week, and that halfback partner should never be Wilkin.

I agree and basically that's my point!

He can't play in the halves as he's just not a out and out half at all (did terrific last year in the situation we had) and I don't think he's big or strong enough to play Backrow.

So for me, he's not good enough and that's been my opinion since 2007 and I took some stick for saying it. He gets thru some work in defence but he also misses a lot.

I'd go with Greenwood as first choice now and see how he goes. I liked joe last year but wasn't ready physically last year and Brown had him working on his strength in pre season and he's certainly gone bigger, stronger and had certainly improved. He's a runner and that's what we need.

Re: Wire stats (look at your peril) : Sun May 25, 2014 9:51 pm  

Just watched the game back on TV. I'm going to change tact on Wilkin he is as good as Flanagan in defense and runs far better attacking lines and does get an offload away.

I think the issue is consistency. I've never seen Flanagan turn up and not put in a shift. But Wilkin does seem to pick and chose games and I do wonder if he has a finger in too many pies with the Union and TV and RL.

He was very very good on Friday, yet when I had been at the game I missed most of the shift he put in. Where as flanagan's hard hits stood out. I think there is a difference in style, but in terms of effectiveness they are fairly equal defensively for me. Whether they are equal week by week is another matter.

But a back row of Wilkin, Flanagan and Wellens is just not viable for me.

If Wellens must play to give that heart and soul to a team. Then we have to face up that only one of Wilkin and Flanagan and maybe Jones can make the back row, in a fully fit team with Manu and Sia.

Amor Roby Walmsley Wilkin Manu Wellens

bench

Mose, Sia, Laffranchi, Greenwood or Walker.

This allows Wilkin to play the tackling stint for a full 80 but that role must be defined. Sia and Manu rotating on and off the field; with Mose and Laffranchi swaping with Amor and Walmsley.

In the end some fan favourites can't play together.



edit.....

if he gets game time Savelio may take that last bench spot. but that is also assuming a fully fit squad., chances of that happening ????????????/

Re: Wire stats (look at your peril) : Sun May 25, 2014 10:31 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

Just watched the game back on TV. I'm going to change tact on Wilkin he is as good as Flanagan in defense and runs far better attacking lines and does get an offload away.

I think the issue is consistency. I've never seen Flanagan turn up and not put in a shift. But Wilkin does seem to pick and chose games and I do wonder if he has a finger in too many pies with the Union and TV and RL.

He was very very good on Friday, yet when I had been at the game I missed most of the shift he put in. Where as flanagan's hard hits stood out. I think there is a difference in style, but in terms of effectiveness they are fairly equal defensively for me. Whether they are equal week by week is another matter.

But a back row of Wilkin, Flanagan and Wellens is just not viable for me.

If Wellens must play to give that heart and soul to a team. Then we have to face up that only one of Wilkin and Flanagan and maybe Jones can make the back row, in a fully fit team with Manu and Sia.

Amor Roby Walmsley Wilkin Manu Wellens

bench

Mose, Sia, Laffranchi, Greenwood or Walker.

This allows Wilkin to play the tackling stint for a full 80 but that role must be defined. Sia and Manu rotating on and off the field; with Mose and Laffranchi swaping with Amor and Walmsley.

In the end some fan favourites can't play together.



edit.....

if he gets game time Savelio may take that last bench spot. but that is also assuming a fully fit squad., chances of that happening ????????????/

Agree with a lot of what you say. My problem on the whole is the highlighted bit, either Wilkins role is poorly defined by the coaching team, or he simply drifts into trying to play other roles during the course of a game. Leave the kicking to Walsh and Hohaia (and in a pinch lomax) focus on playing a back row role, running lines and tackling then I'd be happy for him to play the spot he has. I just don't have faith in him not to try and float into getting involved in shift plays though, and would rather sacrifice the quality he has for the sake of someone who can fulfil that role.

On top of that, greenwood, Savelio, walker and Thompson are all pushing for regular time now (or in the case of Savelio, should be), and when Manu returns, does Wilkin, with his tendency to drift, deserve a spot ahead of them? He has talent no doubt, but playing wellens in the manner I suggested doesn't leave room for Wilkin to also play an unconventional role. I just don't think our pack is big enough to support 2 players playing untraditional roles, and given we have the youngsters waiting in the wings, it's a case of either or for me, rather than both.

I'd like to see:
Amor Roby Walmsley
Soliola Greenwood
Wellens/Wilkin

Laffranchi Masoe Manu(or Savelio) LMS/Wilkin/Wellens(to interchange at lock)
Plenty of options, and gives us flexibility throughout a game.

Re: Wire stats (look at your peril) : Mon May 26, 2014 1:45 am  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

Agree with a lot of what you say. My problem on the whole is the highlighted bit, either Wilkins role is poorly defined by the coaching team, or he simply drifts into trying to play other roles during the course of a game. Leave the kicking to Walsh and Hohaia (and in a pinch lomax) focus on playing a back row role, running lines and tackling then I'd be happy for him to play the spot he has. I just don't have faith in him not to try and float into getting involved in shift plays though, and would rather sacrifice the quality he has for the sake of someone who can fulfil that role.

On top of that, greenwood, Savelio, walker and Thompson are all pushing for regular time now (or in the case of Savelio, should be), and when Manu returns, does Wilkin, with his tendency to drift, deserve a spot ahead of them? He has talent no doubt, but playing wellens in the manner I suggested doesn't leave room for Wilkin to also play an unconventional role. I just don't think our pack is big enough to support 2 players playing untraditional roles, and given we have the youngsters waiting in the wings, it's a case of either or for me, rather than both.

I'd like to see:
Amor Roby Walmsley
Soliola Greenwood
Wellens/Wilkin

Laffranchi Masoe Manu(or Savelio) LMS/Wilkin/Wellens(to interchange at lock)
Plenty of options, and gives us flexibility throughout a game.

We've missed Manu more than we expected, I'll be glad to see him back.

Re: Wire stats (look at your peril) : Mon May 26, 2014 6:56 am  

St pete wrote:

We've missed Manu more than we expected, I'll be glad to see him back.

We sure have missed him for his skill of getting the ball out of the tackle and providing that to unpredictability. Back to the Wilkin debate I would suggest fans on here study Wilkins play in depth over a couple of games to show how important he is to the pattern of our attacking options.
Its going to be very difficult for Brown when we are at full strength to know what his best team is going to be especially the bench players.
I don't see Flanagan in the back 3 at all, his strengths are his tackling and a good passer of the ball so in that respect he could be cover or rotation for Roby.
Of the 4 youngsters in Greenwood, Sav, Thompson, Walker I would have them in that pecking order with Greenwood the pick of the bunch.
When Lomax returns we are still going to have the problem of when, where and how we are going to play Wellens.

Re: Wire stats (look at your peril) : Mon May 26, 2014 11:15 am  

Judder Man wrote:

We sure have missed him for his skill of getting the ball out of the tackle and providing that to unpredictability. Back to the Wilkin debate I would suggest fans on here study Wilkins play in depth over a couple of games to show how important he is to the pattern of our attacking options.
Its going to be very difficult for Brown when we are at full strength to know what his best team is going to be especially the bench players.
I don't see Flanagan in the back 3 at all, his strengths are his tackling and a good passer of the ball so in that respect he could be cover or rotation for Roby.
Of the 4 youngsters in Greenwood, Sav, Thompson, Walker I would have them in that pecking order with Greenwood the pick of the bunch.
When Lomax returns we are still going to have the problem of when, where and how we are going to play Wellens.

I think your missing my point. I know that Wilkin contributes to our attacking structure, but that isn't the role of a second rower. If he was playing halfback, then it's great he's doing his job. Second rowers should be running lines off said creative players and cause confusion in defences - when he sticks to that he does very well, makes breaks and looks good. But, he doesn't stick to just that.

Greenwood is another who "runs good lines" so is comparable. He's no where near as accomplished as Wilkin yet (not saying he couldn't be in time) but his propensity to stick to the role he's given, not the kicking or the passing games means I'd take the decreased ability for the stability in our plays.

Re: Wire stats (look at your peril) : Mon May 26, 2014 7:03 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

I think your missing my point. I know that Wilkin contributes to our attacking structure, but that isn't the role of a second rower. If he was playing halfback, then it's great he's doing his job. Second rowers should be running lines off said creative players and cause confusion in defences - when he sticks to that he does very well, makes breaks and looks good. But, he doesn't stick to just that.

Greenwood is another who "runs good lines" so is comparable. He's no where near as accomplished as Wilkin yet (not saying he couldn't be in time) but his propensity to stick to the role he's given, not the kicking or the passing games means I'd take the decreased ability for the stability in our plays.

Wilkin just isn't good enough.