Re: "Things can only get better" : Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:14 pm  

Tez the Saint wrote:

Your correct, Laffranchi generally played as a back-rower in Australia. regarding the front row options, we don't really have anyone else who is experienced, or good enough to play there. We only have 5 props in the squad, Perry, Laffranchi, LMS, Walmsley, and Greenwood, the latter to being to young and inexperienced to play in such a crucial position.

Clough played there for the majority of last season, but I still see him as more of a back rower to be honest, and the only other option we have is TP, who isn't really hard working enough to play there, so we don't really have any other choice but to start with Perry and Laffranchi. I expect Walmsley and Greenwood to play some part this season, but I don't expect them to play in the so called "big games" (Wire, Wigan, Leeds etc..)

The decision to drop Wilkin altogether would be a hard one IMO, and I think he is still worthy a place in the team, just not as a loose forward. He was poor last season, and the switch from second-row to loose-forward hasn't helped him whatsoever. He was superb in 2011, playing as a left sided back rower, and with the lack of ability up front, having an extra workhorse at 13 could prove to be highly beneficial. I wouldn't mind seeing a back row of Wilkin, Manu and TP, with Sia providing an impact from the bench, just as he did in the playoffs last season. With this in mind, I would go for this 17 for Widnes on Sunday:

1. Paul Wellens
21. Tommy Makinson
3. Jordan Turner
19. Josh Jones
5. Francis Meli
20. Lee Gaskell
7. Jonny Lomax
8. Josh Perry
9. James Roby
14. Anthony Laffranchi
12. Jon Wilkin
13. Willie Manu
11. Tony Puletua

4. Sia Soliola
6. Lance Hohaia
10. Louie McCarthy Scarsbrook
15. Mark Flanagan

Greenwood is a back rower. We have Forster and Hand who should both see game time this year and start the transition into first team, there is also Ant Walker who, I would say, is a year behind the aforementioned pair but a very good prop.

Re: "Things can only get better" : Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:09 pm  

BackrowSaint wrote:

Greenwood is a back rower. We have Forster and Hand who should both see game time this year and start the transition into first team, there is also Ant Walker who, I would say, is a year behind the aforementioned pair but a very good prop.

He's played prop a few times, and is certainly capable of playing there.

Forster and Hand aren't quite ready for the first team just yet, that is why I didn't include them in my post. I dont know how much you have seen of Walker, but I personally can't see him being good enough for Saints, but that's just my opinion.

Re: "Things can only get better" : Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:14 am  

Tez the Saint wrote:

Your correct, Laffranchi generally played as a back-rower in Australia. regarding the front row options, we don't really have anyone else who is experienced, or good enough to play there. We only have 5 props in the squad, Perry, Laffranchi, LMS, Walmsley, and Greenwood, the latter to being to young and inexperienced to play in such a crucial position.

Clough played there for the majority of last season, but I still see him as more of a back rower to be honest, and the only other option we have is TP, who isn't really hard working enough to play there, so we don't really have any other choice but to start with Perry and Laffranchi. I expect Walmsley and Greenwood to play some part this season, but I don't expect them to play in the so called "big games" (Wire, Wigan, Leeds etc..)

I disagree with a lot of the above.

For a start, Clough is a prop these days, even if he started life in the back row. His strength is driving up the middle.
Puletua is also, imo, better suited to prop. When you play him wider, he doesn't get involved enough. When he's in the middle, he get's on with it and there's few players in the league that can match his strength in contact.

Laffranchi is a small prop, who has bags of experience playing back row, so why not use him in the 13 shirt as the "3rd prop" role?
I would also be one of the guys thinking of dropping Wilkin. Whilst I appreciate his skills as an individual, its been a while since I've been convinced its working in our situation.
His tackle count is always very impressive, but he rarely dominates in the tackle and often gets out muscled at the ptb.
His skills as a kicker an distributor are useful, but I feel when he takes up position to use these skills, not only is he marginalising his contribution as a forward, but it tends to leave a half back standing around.

So my back row picks for the 17 would be Boof, Sia, Manu and Flash.
I reckon Flash can give us a similar work rate in defence as Wilkin, but is a lot more physical about it (without becoming wild like Sia).
I'd put Sia on the Bench, his habit of flying in for the tackle and missing will not go un noticed by other coaches and if he's on from the start, while the other team's fresh, they'll try and exploit that from the off. He's also shown he can add real impact when he's introduced.

The props would be Perry and Tony P to start, with Clough and LMS on the bench.
I've defended Perry on here a few times. I think he's often been underated as to what he brings in terms of defence - no one dominates the tackle and slows down the ptb as well, but he was poor in the play offs last year and on Saturday, when we needed some one to run into that brick wall, the massive ex-kangeroo international tough guy prop should've been stepping up. Instead, I think someone else quoted he only took two hit ups in his first stint?
Maybe my turnaround is harsh, I heard good reports from the friendlies about him, especially the way he shut down Justin Poore in the Wakey game.
If he, or any of the other props, don't improve, then we have Walmsley, Hand and Forster who should all be hungry for a run. Forster did a decent job in the brief league run outs he had last year and Hand impressed plenty in the preseason games.

Whoever you pick, its a good set of players. Hopefully Brown will stick 'em all in a bag this week and give them a good shake and the team we like watching will come out at the end.

Re: "Things can only get better" : Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:22 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

Laffranchi is a small prop, who has bags of experience playing back row, so why not use him in the 13 shirt as the "3rd prop" role?

I have been banging on for Laffranchi to be installed at Loose Forward since last year. As you said he would be an ideal 3rd Prop and would get through some serious work in defence.

Re: "Things can only get better" : Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:15 pm  

Offside Monkey wrote:

I disagree with a lot of the above.

For a start, Clough is a prop these days, even if he started life in the back row. His strength is driving up the middle.
Puletua is also, imo, better suited to prop. When you play him wider, he doesn't get involved enough. When he's in the middle, he get's on with it and there's few players in the league that can match his strength in contact.

Laffranchi is a small prop, who has bags of experience playing back row, so why not use him in the 13 shirt as the "3rd prop" role?
I would also be one of the guys thinking of dropping Wilkin. Whilst I appreciate his skills as an individual, its been a while since I've been convinced its working in our situation.
His tackle count is always very impressive, but he rarely dominates in the tackle and often gets out muscled at the ptb.
His skills as a kicker an distributor are useful, but I feel when he takes up position to use these skills, not only is he marginalising his contribution as a forward, but it tends to leave a half back standing around.

So my back row picks for the 17 would be Boof, Sia, Manu and Flash.
I reckon Flash can give us a similar work rate in defence as Wilkin, but is a lot more physical about it (without becoming wild like Sia).
I'd put Sia on the Bench, his habit of flying in for the tackle and missing will not go un noticed by other coaches and if he's on from the start, while the other team's fresh, they'll try and exploit that from the off. He's also shown he can add real impact when he's introduced.

The props would be Perry and Tony P to start, with Clough and LMS on the bench.
I've defended Perry on here a few times. I think he's often been underated as to what he brings in terms of defence - no one dominates the tackle and slows down the ptb as well, but he was poor in the play offs last year and on Saturday, when we needed some one to run into that brick wall, the massive ex-kangeroo international tough guy prop should've been stepping up. Instead, I think someone else quoted he only took two hit ups in his first stint?
Maybe my turnaround is harsh, I heard good reports from the friendlies about him, especially the way he shut down Justin Poore in the Wakey game.
If he, or any of the other props, don't improve, then we have Walmsley, Hand and Forster who should all be hungry for a run. Forster did a decent job in the brief league run outs he had last year and Hand impressed plenty in the preseason games.

Whoever you pick, its a good set of players. Hopefully Brown will stick 'em all in a bag this week and give them a good shake and the team we like watching will come out at the end.

Well I don't agree, so it looks like we've reached a cross roads.

Read my post again, I pointed out that Clough has been playing as a prop in recent times, but I don't think that's his best position. He isn't big enough for a prop IMO, and would be far more effective running out wide against halves and outside backs.

Laffranchi had a great first year, and was out most consistent prop throughout last season, so why play him at 13. Yes, he would be reasonably effective at 13, but when you look at the balance we have in the key positions (1,6,7,9) we don't really have anyone who can take the game by the scruff of the neck, and direct the side around the field. Wilkin isn't great at that, but he has a greater ability in that particular part of the game than any other back rower in the squad. Whether you like him or not is a matter of opinion, but you can't deniy that.

I dont think TP would be a wise choice as a starting prop, but it all depends on the opposition I suppose. The first 20 minutes is often where a game is won and lost, and you are far better starting with your two most hardworking props up front. Against the less mobile packs, Puletua would be a decent option up front, but against the more physical packs, it just wouldn't work. If you want to see an extra prop in at 13, then why not play Puletua there with Laffranchi and Perry as starting props? Makes more sense to me..

I thought Perry was our best forward against Huddersfield, but that's a matter of opinion I suppose. I don't know how much you have seen of Walmsley and Forster, but they arent quite ready to be thrown into the first team just yet. Next season maybe, but not this season. Forster did a decent job when he played last season, but he isn't an improvement on the players we alread have playing ahead of him. Hand also did a decent job in the pre season games, but surely you understand the difference in intensity between a ore season friendly and a Super League fixture. All three will become quality players, I have no doubt about that, but they are not quite there yet.

I agree with your final point. Laffranchi has publicly stated that the pack were more than embarrassed about Saturday's defeat, and they will want to go out and prove a point. It won't be an easy game, but I expect the lads to come out firing. They all have a point to prove, not just the forwards, and I expect them to go out and prove it.