Re: I know its the off season but... : Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:30 pm  

wakey_saint wrote:

Hull have made themselves look a bit stupid with Pearson promising 2 quality half backs for next season, bringing in Holdsworth then failing publicly with bids for Chase, Prince and Miller...also wonder what unrest this will cause with Seymour and Horne as it suggests to me Gentle doesnt deem either good enough to start regularly for them.

Leeds appear desperate for a centre, and again have failed publicly in bids for Moon and Lulia and with other available centres cant see them signing anybody of quality now so may have to continue playing Ablett there

Wigan have spent money signing Smith, Green and Taylor for next season...but imo Smith and Green are nowhere near as good to replace Finch and Leuluai, Taylor is a good prospect but a lot is needed to replace Lima, and have also lost Carmont (huge blow), Fielden and looks like Hock could be on his way as well. They have spent money on 3 players to try to improve, but the 3 arent as good as what they have lost for me.

Just because these teams have been linked with players, they havent really made any significant signings that makes me think "God I wish that was us", and I would rather not be linked with anybody, than get my hopes up that a quality player would be coming in or we would be strengthening our squad and then be disappointed. For me, we are stronger this season than last as Turner is an adequate replacement for Shenton, Manu is stronger than Flannery and we have added Walmsley who looks a very good prospect and can play front or back row as cover. If players available arent better than what we have got then why look at signing people for the sake of it

Regarding Wigan, you can help people leaving but they have replaced their departing halfback with two halfbacks and have a good scrum half as a backup. We replaced Eastmond and Pryce with a fullback/interchange hooker, promoted the junior and have no backup. Wigan have done a better job than us.

Regarding Hull, they have cast off the dead wood and brought in some better players and are not afraid to aim too high. If you mediocre aims the best you can achieve is mediocrity. The fans will appreciate that the club wants the best. Since when did you feel that way about Saints? If Hull fall short in 2013 it will not be down to a lack of trying and Saints guaranteed to fail as they are clearly not trying.

Leeds have high aims too, but being champions does not mean they have to improve, we have been champions once in the last 10 years. Unthinkable given how good the team in 2002 was but the club seem happy with making a cup semi and a game or two in the play offs.

OK I am not asking for the club to make any old signing to give us something to talk about. But the weaknesses we have last year will still exist in 2013. No playmakers and a weak/lazy pack. We are not making signing to help this as we don't pay transfer fees and we are not paying off our overpaid show ponies because that would cost money also.

All I want is some hope that things can improve. Saints would rather just balance the books.

Re: I know its the off season but... : Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:42 pm  

Noel Cleal wrote:

Regarding Wigan, you can help people leaving but they have replaced their departing halfback with two halfbacks and have a good scrum half as a backup. We replaced Eastmond and Pryce with a fullback/interchange hooker, promoted the junior and have no backup. Wigan have done a better job than us.

Regarding Hull, they have cast off the dead wood and brought in some better players and are not afraid to aim too high. If you mediocre aims the best you can achieve is mediocrity. The fans will appreciate that the club wants the best. Since when did you feel that way about Saints? If Hull fall short in 2013 it will not be down to a lack of trying and Saints guaranteed to fail as they are clearly not trying.

Leeds have high aims too, but being champions does not mean they have to improve, we have been champions once in the last 10 years. Unthinkable given how good the team in 2002 was but the club seem happy with making a cup semi and a game or two in the play offs.

OK I am not asking for the club to make any old signing to give us something to talk about. But the weaknesses we have last year will still exist in 2013. No playmakers and a weak/lazy pack. We are not making signing to help this as we don't pay transfer fees and we are not paying off our overpaid show ponies because that would cost money also.

All I want is some hope that things can improve. Saints would rather just balance the books.

They have replaced their departing 6 with a stand off who has looked pretty average in SL from what I have seen, their world class 7 with a scrum half who we had and let go because he was behind Eastmond, Lomax, Gaskell and Wheeler in the pecking order (3 of who are still at the club), and a prop who is a great prospect but needs to develop more to replace Lima. Carmont, one of their most dangerous players, and Hock if he goes will leave massive holes in their team who will have to be filled by youngsters.

Hull have let their best player of 2011 and 2012 (which most Hull fans acknowledge) go to us in order to sign Ellis, granted a quality player but so is Manu. Manu has also suffered far less with injuries than Ellis last couple of years. They have signed Holdsworth, and pretty much announced they were looking at 3 other half backs and have been rejected by all 3. This could cause massive unrest as I know if I was Seymour/Horne, I wouldnt be happy that the only reason I am still there is because 3 other players turned them down. How do you know Saints havent looked at players but not gone public?

Leeds have openly admitted that they are looking out for a new centre and there isnt anybody out there good enough and available at the moment (Hetherington article on Sky Sports), and with the NRL cap increase it has become a lot harder to sign the bigger names from down under as we cant compete money-wise without having to let 2 or 3 others go to make cap space.

Maybe you disagree, but I would say Flannery out and Manu in, Shenton out and Turner in overall for next season is an improvement. Hohaia didnt have the best season for us, but at the same time the guy also had some good games for us at 6 - both games against champions Leeds he was fantastic for example. Hohaia had left the only club of his career, moved half way round the world and had to get used to being a half back in a new team, then when he arrived played full back, 6, 7, 9 and sub in his opening games which would be unsettling...having played half back and moved clubs it can take a long time to get used to the players around you. Finch's first season at Wigan he was nothing special, but after that looked very good.

We will have a new coach in NB to bring in new ideas, and I think it will make a difference having an experienced head coach in for a full season, not a youth development coach and a conditioner with no experience taking charge for most of the season and I would expect this to show through next season. You say that we are lacking ambition and happy with mediocracy, yet we have a fantastic new stadium which we own, a highly rated coach coming in and the squad overall is stronger this year than last IMO...I am therefore happy to wait for the season to start and judge the team on then rather than last season.

Re: I know its the off season but... : Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:17 pm  

wakey_saint wrote:

They have replaced their departing 6 with a stand off who has looked pretty average in SL from what I have seen, their world class 7 with a scrum half who we had and let go because he was behind Eastmond, Lomax, Gaskell and Wheeler in the pecking order (3 of who are still at the club), and a prop who is a great prospect but needs to develop more to replace Lima. Carmont, one of their most dangerous players, and Hock if he goes will leave massive holes in their team who will have to be filled by youngsters.

Hull have let their best player of 2011 and 2012 (which most Hull fans acknowledge) go to us in order to sign Ellis, granted a quality player but so is Manu. Manu has also suffered far less with injuries than Ellis last couple of years. They have signed Holdsworth, and pretty much announced they were looking at 3 other half backs and have been rejected by all 3. This could cause massive unrest as I know if I was Seymour/Horne, I wouldnt be happy that the only reason I am still there is because 3 other players turned them down. How do you know Saints havent looked at players but not gone public?

Leeds have openly admitted that they are looking out for a new centre and there isnt anybody out there good enough and available at the moment (Hetherington article on Sky Sports), and with the NRL cap increase it has become a lot harder to sign the bigger names from down under as we cant compete money-wise without having to let 2 or 3 others go to make cap space.

Maybe you disagree, but I would say Flannery out and Manu in, Shenton out and Turner in overall for next season is an improvement. Hohaia didnt have the best season for us, but at the same time the guy also had some good games for us at 6 - both games against champions Leeds he was fantastic for example. Hohaia had left the only club of his career, moved half way round the world and had to get used to being a half back in a new team, then when he arrived played full back, 6, 7, 9 and sub in his opening games which would be unsettling...having played half back and moved clubs it can take a long time to get used to the players around you. Finch's first season at Wigan he was nothing special, but after that looked very good.

We will have a new coach in NB to bring in new ideas, and I think it will make a difference having an experienced head coach in for a full season, not a youth development coach and a conditioner with no experience taking charge for most of the season and I would expect this to show through next season. You say that we are lacking ambition and happy with mediocracy, yet we have a fantastic new stadium which we own, a highly rated coach coming in and the squad overall is stronger this year than last IMO...I am therefore happy to wait for the season to start and judge the team on then rather than last season.

Stop talking sense. You'll get a ban for that!!!!

Re: I know its the off season but... : Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:24 am  

[quote="Noel Cleal"]
Regarding Hull, they have cast off the dead wood [quote]

Well that's worrying for us then isn't it, seeing two of them are coming here.

Re: I know its the off season but... : Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:21 pm  

Donkey OTay wrote:

Well that's worrying for us then isn't it, seeing two of them are coming here.

I think Hull wanted to keep both. I would not class them as dead wood.

Re: I know its the off season but... : Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:52 pm  

wakey_saint wrote:

They have replaced their departing 6 with a stand off who has looked pretty average in SL from what I have seen, their world class 7 with a scrum half who we had and let go because he was behind Eastmond, Lomax, Gaskell and Wheeler in the pecking order (3 of who are still at the club), and a prop who is a great prospect but needs to develop more to replace Lima. Carmont, one of their most dangerous players, and Hock if he goes will leave massive holes in their team who will have to be filled by youngsters.

Hull have let their best player of 2011 and 2012 (which most Hull fans acknowledge) go to us in order to sign Ellis, granted a quality player but so is Manu. Manu has also suffered far less with injuries than Ellis last couple of years. They have signed Holdsworth, and pretty much announced they were looking at 3 other half backs and have been rejected by all 3. This could cause massive unrest as I know if I was Seymour/Horne, I wouldnt be happy that the only reason I am still there is because 3 other players turned them down. How do you know Saints havent looked at players but not gone public?

Leeds have openly admitted that they are looking out for a new centre and there isnt anybody out there good enough and available at the moment (Hetherington article on Sky Sports), and with the NRL cap increase it has become a lot harder to sign the bigger names from down under as we cant compete money-wise without having to let 2 or 3 others go to make cap space.

Maybe you disagree, but I would say Flannery out and Manu in, Shenton out and Turner in overall for next season is an improvement. Hohaia didnt have the best season for us, but at the same time the guy also had some good games for us at 6 - both games against champions Leeds he was fantastic for example. Hohaia had left the only club of his career, moved half way round the world and had to get used to being a half back in a new team, then when he arrived played full back, 6, 7, 9 and sub in his opening games which would be unsettling...having played half back and moved clubs it can take a long time to get used to the players around you. Finch's first season at Wigan he was nothing special, but after that looked very good.

We will have a new coach in NB to bring in new ideas, and I think it will make a difference having an experienced head coach in for a full season, not a youth development coach and a conditioner with no experience taking charge for most of the season and I would expect this to show through next season. You say that we are lacking ambition and happy with mediocracy, yet we have a fantastic new stadium which we own, a highly rated coach coming in and the squad overall is stronger this year than last IMO...I am therefore happy to wait for the season to start and judge the team on then rather than last season.

I do agree (mostly) with what you are saying. Hull have not been able to sign the players they really wanted to, but Holdsworth will be a great signing for them. Wigans half backs for next year are not making me lose sleep, but they are still actual halfbacks and they have young Hampshire coming through for when one of them falls on his face (my money is on Matty). While our signings, man for man, are an improvement. Manu is better than Flannery by a mile and Turner is a lot better value than Shenton.

Hohaia is where we differ. Even as a young Kiwi international Lance was never a good playmaker he was a runner and changing to Fullback really helped him as a player. Finch as an average journeyman in my opinion but he does know how to control a game, which Lance does not. He is like Michael Monaghan a great player just not a scrum half.

Jonny is a good halfback also but is more of a runner than a "midfield general". Neither player is willing/capable of leading the other, neither are poor players but they do not make a good combination.

Also by playmaker I am not just talking about the halves but 1 and 13 as well. Wello does not have the ball playing skills of a Hodgson or a Tomkins and we do not actually have anyone you could call a loose forward, just lots of second rows. Lance and Jonny are similar skill-wise to Burrow and Maguire the only difference is that Leeds have Sinfield to compliment and we have no one.

I was not attempting to compare player for player but point out we are once again second rower obsessed instead of strengthening where we are weak. The stadium does show the club has off field ambition but the ground is built it is time to focus on the field again.

Hopefully you are correct and Nathan Brown will make the team spring back into life but he does not have a lot to work with. Anyway we will see.

Re: I know its the off season but... : Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:24 pm  

I think Brown has enough to work with. He has 4 halfbacks at the club. Just because we stuck to the same 2 last year, that was more down to having a temporary coach in charge. With temporary staff there is always the problem that the immediate future overides the long term.

I think actually think that Centre's and half back are the only question marks in the team that need resolving. In a way there are alot of young lads careers in the balance. Turner and Jones could nail down a centre spot if they show enough about them. There will be plenty of chances for the likes of swift, makinson and ashe to try to nail down a wing spot. Hopefully the FB berth will get more variation, I can't see us using Wellens week in and week out (why should we warrington never used hodgson week in and week out even if he was the best option).

Basically the whole back line are playing for their spots, contracts are up in 2013 and 2014 and if they can't make it there own then Brown could have a long shopping list come the end of the year and more players maybe moving on similar to Foster.