Re: James Graham : Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:27 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I really can't understand why Saints fans have a complete mental block when it comes to managing their expectations of academy players. Yes, James Graham was eighteen when he made his debut. But it took him the best part of two and a half years to physically develop into a viable, competitive first team prop that could be relied upon to pull extended shifts when injuries dictated.

You have no idea what James Graham was capable of at 18 years old. We were only hit with the kind of injuries that necessitated him playing long stints from around halfway through 2008. Prior to that he played as props should be played: in spells.

It is hopelessly unrealistic to expect any academy player recently elevated to the first team squad to be fully competitive in under three years.

So you would hold somebody back just because in your head a voice tells you that nobody is ready to be fully competitive at first team level in under three years? How ridiculous. A person is ready when they are ready. Everybody is different and a good coach will read each player as an individual and tailor their opportunities accordingly. You have no idea where the promoted lads are up to, physically or otherwise.

As for Clough and Dixon, there will be many reasons why they are where they are. Clough spent most of last season on the physio table, for instance, which could mean that his development has been delayed by a year. Dixon was forever being swapped for Ashurst, and both only tended to be played during injury crises. However, Dixon still managed to pull out a try at the Grand Final in 2010 when we were being pummelled, which suggests he was capable of mixing it with the big boys 18 months ago in a way that he hasn't been allowed or hasn't had the opportunity to do subsequently.

I agree that we need a prop now. However, we aint going to get one now. Meanwhile, we have promoted four to the first team. We don't know how they will mix it until they are given a chance.

Re: James Graham : Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:36 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

You have no idea what James Graham was capable of at 18 years old.

I KNOW he wasn't capable of the level of performance he regularly turns in now.

We were only hit with the kind of injuries that necessitated him playing long stints from around halfway through 2008. Prior to that he played as props should be played: in spells.

Really? Who'd a thunk it?

So you would hold somebody back just because in your head a voice tells you that nobody is ready to be fully competitive at first team level in under three years? How ridiculous.

You really do have a talent for putting your own words in people's mouths, arguing against them - and then losing. Young players are routinely held back until they hit somewhere between the ages of 21 and 23 - by just about every coach in SL. There's a reason for this: Their bodies haven't sufficiently matured to stand up to the knocks. Which is one of the reasons so many kids struggle to stay fit until they have matured physically (think Lomax, Clough, Gaskell, Wheeler, Eastmond etc.)

A person is ready when they are ready. Everybody is different and a good coach will read each player as an individual and tailor their opportunities accordingly. You have no idea where the promoted lads are up to, physically or otherwise.

I know that they are nowhere near the first team bench right now. Which - by YOUR tautological reasoning - suggests they clearly AREN'T ready.

Yes, some players - a tiny fraction of the total number of juniors cycled through SL since its inception - are capable of making rapid progress. But the overwhelming majority do it the hard way. Perhaps you could provide us with some examples of academy props aged 18 that have gone from struggling to be considered for a bench spot to holding down a regular first team slot precisely ONE YEAR later? Feel free to pick any name from any club in the last, say, fifteen years.

As for Clough and Dixon, there will be many reasons why they are where they are. Clough spent most of last season on the physio table, for instance, which could mean that his development has been delayed by a year. Dixon was forever being swapped for Ashurst, and both only tended to be played during injury crises. However, Dixon still managed to pull out a try at the Grand Final in 2010 when we were being pummelled, which suggests he was capable of mixing it with the big boys 18 months ago in a way that he hasn't been allowed or hasn't had the opportunity to do subsequently.

Hang on - you're saying Paul Clough, the only realistic academy prospect since Graham (who, by the way, arrived nearly TWO DECADES after the last genuine homegrown Saints prop - Paul Forber, which tells you all you need to know about the scarcity of genuine talent in the front row) STILL hasn't developed into a reliable first team prop? That's six years! Vis a vis Dixon, he began to mature midway through last season and his performances improved accordingly. Now he's just about ready - although judging by the way Royce is handling him it seems as though he thinks there are still some minor improvements to be made. Nevertheless, it's taken him the best part of four seasons to arrive at this point.

I agree that we need a prop now. However, we aint going to get one now. Meanwhile, we have promoted four to the first team. We don't know how they will mix it until they are given a chance.

We need a fully developed prop for 2013. Despite what you think - NO ONE has suggested ignoring the kids. I'm sure they are all desperate to play and maybe one or two will work out. But we cannot rely on academy lads giving up anywhere close to thirty pounds of weight for more than the odd game here and there (think of what happened to Frodsham who was thrown into the deep end pretty early). If one of Perry or Clough or Laffranchi go down with a long-term injury and we are forced to call upon reserves we need someone who can not just assume the role and responsibilities - but also the considerable burden of carrying the pack for perhaps in excess of 55 minutes per game.

Re: James Graham : Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:48 am  

Mugwump wrote:

I KNOW he wasn't capable of the level of performance he regularly turns in now.

Really? Who'd a thunk it?

You really do have a talent for putting your own words in people's mouths, arguing against them - and then losing. Young players are routinely held back until they hit somewhere between the ages of 21 and 23 - by just about every coach in SL. There's a reason for this: Their bodies haven't sufficiently matured to stand up to the knocks. Which is one of the reasons so many kids struggle to stay fit until they have matured physically (think Lomax, Clough, Gaskell, Wheeler, Eastmond etc.)

I know that they are nowhere near the first team bench right now. Which - by YOUR tautological reasoning - suggests they clearly AREN'T ready.

Yes, some players - a tiny fraction of the total number of juniors cycled through SL since its inception - are capable of making rapid progress. But the overwhelming majority do it the hard way. Perhaps you could provide us with some examples of academy props aged 18 that have gone from struggling to be considered for a bench spot to holding down a regular first team slot precisely ONE YEAR later? Feel free to pick any name from any club in the last, say, fifteen years.

Hang on - you're saying Paul Clough, the only realistic academy prospect since Graham (who, by the way, arrived nearly TWO DECADES after the last genuine homegrown Saints prop - Paul Forber, which tells you all you need to know about the scarcity of genuine talent in the front row) STILL hasn't developed into a reliable first team prop? That's six years! Vis a vis Dixon, he began to mature midway through last season and his performances improved accordingly. Now he's just about ready - although judging by the way Royce is handling him it seems as though he thinks there are still some minor improvements to be made. Nevertheless, it's taken him the best part of four seasons to arrive at this point.

We need a fully developed prop for 2013. Despite what you think - NO ONE has suggested ignoring the kids. I'm sure they are all desperate to play and maybe one or two will work out. But we cannot rely on academy lads giving up anywhere close to thirty pounds of weight for more than the odd game here and there (think of what happened to Frodsham who was thrown into the deep end pretty early). If one of Perry or Clough or Laffranchi go down with a long-term injury and we are forced to call upon reserves we need someone who can not just assume the role and responsibilities - but also the considerable burden of carrying the pack for perhaps in excess of 55 minutes per game.

Congrats!

You've just beat bewareofshadows longest post record!