Re: SL GF E | St Helens (A) : Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:29 am  

I agree - this is a very good Saints side.
But for me, the difference is the coaching.
Player for player, on paper, I don't think we're too far off them.
But yes, their line speed, their aggression, their discipline, movement and fitness was a million miles from ours.
Thats' about the coaching.

By the way, I'm not calling for Agar's head. Far from it.
I just think they have very good players, who are superbly coached.

Re: SL GF E | St Helens (A) : Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:39 am  

This Saints team is a fine team with no weaknesses really. Look across the Saints team and tell me what you would target? Personally i think they are a terrific team and should be applauded. They could dominate for years yet.[/quote]

Agree very good team. However much easier to have ferocious line speed when you are defending a team always coming out of their own 20. Also much easier to defend with that line speed when you are constantly rolling forward. I said earlier in the thread, stop the outside backs over the first 3 plays and suddenly Saints are not going 40-60m forward before a kick, you pick it up from the kick and you aren’t on your line and line speed is harder to produce.

In terms of where to attack them from an NRL stand point I would say Grace isn’t a brilliant defender to kicks or spread plays. I think Dodd is a young half a quality team would attack. Their back row bar knowles isn’t great and the 20-25 min spread over half time when Walmsley and Lees go off they are vulnerable and nowhere near as dominant, even with quick play the balls and a tired opposition team.

Next year Dodd May start, Welsby will be fullback, Grace will still be in the team, Hoparte/Hurrell on one edge will be a defensive vulnerability. Back row remains a question mark and they will still have the problem when Walmsley goes off/gets injuries.

Like most teams if you keep everybody fit and build some cohesion then you have a chance. Saints are a great team but against an NRL side they simply won’t match up the field from early plays, they won’t be able to put deep pressuring kicks in every set and the opposition won’t be coming away from their own line every set. If you can stop that rhythm to their play you can make them do things they are more uncomfortable with and you can then try and attack the weaker areas I mentioned before.

Re: SL GF E | St Helens (A) : Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:41 am  

Lprhino wrote:

This Saints team is a fine team with no weaknesses really. Look across the Saints team and tell me what you would target? Personally i think they are a terrific team and should be applauded. They could dominate for years yet.

Agree very good team. However much easier to have ferocious line speed when you are defending a team always coming out of their own 20. Also much easier to defend with that line speed when you are constantly rolling forward. I said earlier in the thread, stop the outside backs over the first 3 plays and suddenly Saints are not going 40-60m forward before a kick, you pick it up from the kick and you aren’t on your line and line speed is harder to produce.

In terms of where to attack them from an NRL stand point I would say Grace isn’t a brilliant defender to kicks or spread plays. I think Dodd is a young half a quality team would attack. Their back row bar knowles isn’t great and the 20-25 min spread over half time when Walmsley and Lees go off they are vulnerable and nowhere near as dominant, even with quick play the balls and a tired opposition team.

Next year Dodd May start, Welsby will be fullback, Grace will still be in the team, Hoparte/Hurrell on one edge will be a defensive vulnerability. Back row remains a question mark and they will still have the problem when Walmsley goes off/gets injuries.

Like most teams if you keep everybody fit and build some cohesion then you have a chance. Saints are a great team but against an NRL side they simply won’t march up the field from early plays, they won’t be able to put deep pressuring kicks in every set and the opposition won’t be coming away from their own line every set. If you can stop that rhythm to their play you can make them do things they are more uncomfortable with and you can then try and attack the weaker areas I mentioned before.[/quote]

Re: SL GF E | St Helens (A) : Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:42 am  

[quote="Lprhino"]Agree very good team. However much easier to have ferocious line speed when you are defending a team always coming out of their own 20. Also much easier to defend with that line speed when you are constantly rolling forward. I said earlier in the thread, stop the outside backs over the first 3 plays and suddenly Saints are not going 40-60m forward before a kick, you pick it up from the kick and you aren’t on your line and line speed is harder to produce.

In terms of where to attack them from an NRL stand point I would say Grace isn’t a brilliant defender to kicks or spread plays. I think Dodd is a young half a quality team would attack. Their back row bar knowles isn’t great and the 20-25 min spread over half time when Walmsley and Lees go off they are vulnerable and nowhere near as dominant, even with quick play the balls and a tired opposition team.

Next year Dodd May start, Welsby will be fullback, Grace will still be in the team, Hoparte/Hurrell on one edge will be a defensive vulnerability. Back row remains a question mark and they will still have the problem when Walmsley goes off/gets injuries.

Like most teams if you keep everybody fit and build some cohesion then you have a chance. Saints are a great team but against an NRL side they simply won’t march up the field from early plays, they won’t be able to put deep pressuring kicks in every set and the opposition won’t be coming away from their own line every set. If you can stop that rhythm to their play you can make them do things they are more uncomfortable with and you can then try and attack the weaker areas I mentioned before.

Re: SL GF E | St Helens (A) : Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:45 am  

Simmo71 wrote:

I agree - this is a very good Saints side.
But for me, the difference is the coaching.
Player for player, on paper, I don't think we're too far off them.
But yes, their line speed, their aggression, their discipline, movement and fitness was a million miles from ours.
Thats' about the coaching.

By the way, I'm not calling for Agar's head. Far from it.
I just think they have very good players, who are superbly coached.

Most definitely have a better coach Saints.

Re: SL GF E | St Helens (A) : Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:14 am  

Lprhino wrote:

Agree very good team. However much easier to have ferocious line speed when you are defending a team always coming out of their own 20. Also much easier to defend with that line speed when you are constantly rolling forward. I said earlier in the thread, stop the outside backs over the first 3 plays and suddenly Saints are not going 40-60m forward before a kick, you pick it up from the kick and you aren’t on your line and line speed is harder to produce.

In terms of where to attack them from an NRL stand point I would say Grace isn’t a brilliant defender to kicks or spread plays. I think Dodd is a young half a quality team would attack. Their back row bar knowles isn’t great and the 20-25 min spread over half time when Walmsley and Lees go off they are vulnerable and nowhere near as dominant, even with quick play the balls and a tired opposition team.

Next year Dodd May start, Welsby will be fullback, Grace will still be in the team, Hoparte/Hurrell on one edge will be a defensive vulnerability. Back row remains a question mark and they will still have the problem when Walmsley goes off/gets injuries.

Like most teams if you keep everybody fit and build some cohesion then you have a chance. Saints are a great team but against an NRL side they simply won’t march up the field from early plays, they won’t be able to put deep pressuring kicks in every set and the opposition won’t be coming away from their own line every set. If you can stop that rhythm to their play you can make them do things they are more uncomfortable with and you can then try and attack the weaker areas I mentioned before.

[/quote]

It’s interesting you mention our “30 minute lull” as I call it. It’s less to do with Walmsley / Lees off and more to do with them going off with Knowles as well. Knowles leads our defensive line and with the three of them off, Roby does it but is slightly less effective due to his age. It was telling that in the semi final Knowles actually played through to 37 minutes and despite you scoring around then, I don’t think we suffered nearly as much from our usual drop off. Next year though, I think the plan will be to bring a fresh Roby on for Knowles, and play his old high energy high involvement game for 20 minutes (rather than being managed through 80 as he is at the moment), which I think will do a really good job at keeping the pressure up throughout the game. It’s part of the reason I think Lussick will go really well for us.

It’s also interesting you single out Dodd as a defensive weakness. In Fages and Lomax we probably have 2 of the best defensive halves in the comp (if not the best) and we have been playing Dodd at hooker for large parts of this year to really focus on his defence, and a lot of his training has been around defending as well. We didn’t keep Richardson because the club weren’t confident he could pick up the defensive aspect of the game like Dodd can, and I’m comfortable with an off-season he will be in good shape. He’s not perfect yet (it wouldn’t have surprised me if Fages was playing if he had managed to push Luke Briscoe out for your second try for example, which Dodd didn’t manage), but it would surprise me if he’s targeted like you would Richardson for example.

I think Mata’utia had a poor start to the season, which has led to our backrow being a little underrated this year (not helped with Bentley missing 90% of the season, and Thompson being … underwhelming). If Mata’utia plays the whole year like he has since the cup final, he will be a dream team second row next year. The other backrow spots are interesting. Obviously we have signed Sironen as a direct replacement for Thompson, but Batchelor is getting better and every game so who gets the 12 shirt is going to be a bit of a pre season battle. Add in Jamie Bell, (Konrad Hurrell), Jake Wingfield and Matty Foster (who impressed on duel reg at Leigh this year) it’s likely to be one of our most competitive positions next year.

Hopoate for Naiqama is a like for like swap so it’s hard to say if it’s something that should/ could be targeted. What I will say is Naiqamas age is starting to show this year and some of the defensive reads he makes when jumping out the line haven’t been as effective. This is where Catalans targeted in our 5 minute disaster class on MW, so I can actually see Hopoate improving this aspect.

Not really sure where you have seen a weakness in Grace (if anything kicking at Coote is a far more effective strategy this year, he’s dropped a couple cold like the first minute of the semi). I will say it’s the bomb to the centres that seem far more effective against us at the moment (again I think Percival dropped one in the lead up to your second try), and again something Catalans used at MW which I hope we have a strategy for this time.

Ultimately the best way to know how we would do against an NRL side is look to the 2020 WCC where we lost to the Roosters 20-12. It was a game of coulda shoulda woulda for us bombing a few opportunities which could have given us the lead. The team is slightly different now (Luke Thompson was awesome for us that night) but if we were to win it again, i really hope to see another WCC to see how we have progressed.

Re: SL GF E | St Helens (A) : Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:25 am  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

It’s interesting you mention our “30 minute lull” as I call it. It’s less to do with Walmsley / Lees off and more to do with them going off with Knowles as well. Knowles leads our defensive line and with the three of them off, Roby does it but is slightly less effective due to his age. It was telling that in the semi final Knowles actually played through to 37 minutes and despite you scoring around then, I don’t think we suffered nearly as much from our usual drop off. Next year though, I think the plan will be to bring a fresh Roby on for Knowles, and play his old high energy high involvement game for 20 minutes (rather than being managed through 80 as he is at the moment), which I think will do a really good job at keeping the pressure up throughout the game. It’s part of the reason I think Lussick will go really well for us.

It’s also interesting you single out Dodd as a defensive weakness. In Fages and Lomax we probably have 2 of the best defensive halves in the comp (if not the best) and we have been playing Dodd at hooker for large parts of this year to really focus on his defence, and a lot of his training has been around defending as well. We didn’t keep Richardson because the club weren’t confident he could pick up the defensive aspect of the game like Dodd can, and I’m comfortable with an off-season he will be in good shape. He’s not perfect yet (it wouldn’t have surprised me if Fages was playing if he had managed to push Luke Briscoe out for your second try for example, which Dodd didn’t manage), but it would surprise me if he’s targeted like you would Richardson for example.

I think Mata’utia had a poor start to the season, which has led to our backrow being a little underrated this year (not helped with Bentley missing 90% of the season, and Thompson being … underwhelming). If Mata’utia plays the whole year like he has since the cup final, he will be a dream team second row next year. The other backrow spots are interesting. Obviously we have signed Sironen as a direct replacement for Thompson, but Batchelor is getting better and every game so who gets the 12 shirt is going to be a bit of a pre season battle. Add in Jamie Bell, (Konrad Hurrell), Jake Wingfield and Matty Foster (who impressed on duel reg at Leigh this year) it’s likely to be one of our most competitive positions next year.

Hopoate for Naiqama is a like for like swap so it’s hard to say if it’s something that should/ could be targeted. What I will say is Naiqamas age is starting to show this year and some of the defensive reads he makes when jumping out the line haven’t been as effective. This is where Catalans targeted in our 5 minute disaster class on MW, so I can actually see Hopoate improving this aspect.

Not really sure where you have seen a weakness in Grace (if anything kicking at Coote is a far more effective strategy this year, he’s dropped a couple cold like the first minute of the semi). I will say it’s the bomb to the centres that seem far more effective against us at the moment (again I think Percival dropped one in the lead up to your second try), and again something Catalans used at MW which I hope we have a strategy for this time.

Ultimately the best way to know how we would do against an NRL side is look to the 2020 WCC where we lost to the Roosters 20-12. It was a game of coulda shoulda woulda for us bombing a few opportunities which could have given us the lead. The team is slightly different now (Luke Thompson was awesome for us that night) but if we were to win it again, i really hope to see another WCC to see how we have progressed.[/quote]
Very good post and a fair analysis.
I agree that Grace is not the weakness and more pressure should have been put on Dodd.
Unfortunately we were too embroiled in (badly) taking on your forwards who simply outplayed ours in every position.
Looking forward to the final which I would say Saints are slight favourites.

Re: SL GF E | St Helens (A) : Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:25 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

It’s interesting you mention our “30 minute lull” as I call it. It’s less to do with Walmsley / Lees off and more to do with them going off with Knowles as well. Knowles leads our defensive line and with the three of them off, Roby does it but is slightly less effective due to his age. It was telling that in the semi final Knowles actually played through to 37 minutes and despite you scoring around then, I don’t think we suffered nearly as much from our usual drop off. Next year though, I think the plan will be to bring a fresh Roby on for Knowles, and play his old high energy high involvement game for 20 minutes (rather than being managed through 80 as he is at the moment), which I think will do a really good job at keeping the pressure up throughout the game. It’s part of the reason I think Lussick will go really well for us.

It’s also interesting you single out Dodd as a defensive weakness. In Fages and Lomax we probably have 2 of the best defensive halves in the comp (if not the best) and we have been playing Dodd at hooker for large parts of this year to really focus on his defence, and a lot of his training has been around defending as well. We didn’t keep Richardson because the club weren’t confident he could pick up the defensive aspect of the game like Dodd can, and I’m comfortable with an off-season he will be in good shape. He’s not perfect yet (it wouldn’t have surprised me if Fages was playing if he had managed to push Luke Briscoe out for your second try for example, which Dodd didn’t manage), but it would surprise me if he’s targeted like you would Richardson for example.

I think Mata’utia had a poor start to the season, which has led to our backrow being a little underrated this year (not helped with Bentley missing 90% of the season, and Thompson being … underwhelming). If Mata’utia plays the whole year like he has since the cup final, he will be a dream team second row next year. The other backrow spots are interesting. Obviously we have signed Sironen as a direct replacement for Thompson, but Batchelor is getting better and every game so who gets the 12 shirt is going to be a bit of a pre season battle. Add in Jamie Bell, (Konrad Hurrell), Jake Wingfield and Matty Foster (who impressed on duel reg at Leigh this year) it’s likely to be one of our most competitive positions next year.

Hopoate for Naiqama is a like for like swap so it’s hard to say if it’s something that should/ could be targeted. What I will say is Naiqamas age is starting to show this year and some of the defensive reads he makes when jumping out the line haven’t been as effective. This is where Catalans targeted in our 5 minute disaster class on MW, so I can actually see Hopoate improving this aspect.

Not really sure where you have seen a weakness in Grace (if anything kicking at Coote is a far more effective strategy this year, he’s dropped a couple cold like the first minute of the semi). I will say it’s the bomb to the centres that seem far more effective against us at the moment (again I think Percival dropped one in the lead up to your second try), and again something Catalans used at MW which I hope we have a strategy for this time.

Ultimately the best way to know how we would do against an NRL side is look to the 2020 WCC where we lost to the Roosters 20-12. It was a game of coulda shoulda woulda for us bombing a few opportunities which could have given us the lead. The team is slightly different now (Luke Thompson was awesome for us that night) but if we were to win it again, i really hope to see another WCC to see how we have progressed.[/quote]


Agree on Knowles, I suppose as an 8,10 and 13 that is as good a group as there is in SL. There is an obvious drop at interchange, I think the plan you mentioned with roby could stop some of that. I am looking at it from an NRL point of view and in particular the world club challenge. I think the Panthers pack is decent and I think from the perspective of where you give over the ball it won’t be as easy to have that intense line speed against them.

It isn’t so much Dodd is poor, rather every team attacks the half backs. One of the best in SL isn’t going to cut it against NRL back row options. For example Kikau is above and beyond anything in SL, Clearly and Luai giving him the ball is above anything going on in SL. Dodd can defend, as can Lomax but if you are putting together a game plan then you target them, make them work and eventually make them bite in and go out the back, To’o on the wing for when that happens.

Depends what you want from your back row, I think there is a lack of quality wide running back rowers, esp is SL. By way of example Bentley and Martin against Mata’utia and Sironen, I don’t think there is much in that personally. I think Bentley is a huge gain for us if he can stay fit and a big loss for Saints, appreciate he has hardly been fit this year.

On Grace i think somebody like To’o completely dominates him physically, i also think he rarely gets peppered with high quality kicks in SL, again clearly kicking is another matter to Lui and Leeming. We all know a good kick comes from good field position and if you can do that against Saints then you make them play differently than how they want to. Coote going may have an impact here, he does a lot of kicking for Saints and directs them incredibly well. To me Welsby is a totally different type of player and if Hopoate is there then you won’t get what you get from Coote.

Hopoate is hot,cold and I am not convinced he will go well for you. I say that from watching a lot of NRL. I think he may play full back with Welsby at Centre but we shall see. Again if he is at centre I think he is who you target. Outside backs in SL are clearly nowhere near the quality of those in the NRL. I like Percival and think despite not being a huge centre he stands up fairly well in D.

Re: SL GF E | St Helens (A) : Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:38 pm  

Lprhino wrote: snip as the quoting seems to have gotten squiffy You seem to be picking and choosing players from across the NRL to counter example. Yes, if this Saints side played against the Aussie national team, is fully expect a stuffing … but I also expect that as an England fan! We certainly didn’t disgrace ourselves against the Roosters whom have been there or there abouts in the last two years, and despite the narrative some fans seem to have around Saints not being as good as under Holbrook, I think Woolfs Saints are much more “NRL like” and probably wouldn’t fluff some of the chances we did in that game. Whether that’s enough is another conversation, which is why I say I would really like another shot at the WCC next year if we win next week. I will avoid commenting on the Leeds team too much, but I think there is a big difference between Mata’utia/ Sironen and Martin/ Bentley. Not least, Martin/ Bentley are both primarily right sided second rowers and don’t see eithers game translating particularly well to the left side of the field (though could easily be wrong). I said my piece on Bentley when the rumours first arose about him moving (really excellent defender and lots of industry (second best behind Knowles at Saints), but limited in attack and haven’t seen much line running from him in his time at Saints…), and whilst I quite like Martin, he was outplayed by Mata’utia and Batchelor. If Sironen is a hit (as a 17st, 6ft5 wider running backrower should) he will offer us more overall. I’m not sure how Bentley can be a big loss for us, given we have played without him for basically the whole year already? I’m don’t think he would have been the difference in any of the games we lost this year which is surely the measure of “missing” someone? Welsby will be fullback next year, it was already announced by Woolf (https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2021/07/29/w ... k-in-2022/) and if Hopoate doesn’t perform (and I trust Woolf to have the best chance of having him perform) then Hurrell, Simm or Shay Martyn take his place - that’s not bad depth …

Lprhino wrote: snip as the quoting seems to have gotten squiffy You seem to be picking and choosing players from across the NRL to counter example. Yes, if this Saints side played against the Aussie national team, is fully expect a stuffing … but I also expect that as an England fan! We certainly didn’t disgrace ourselves against the Roosters whom have been there or there abouts in the last two years, and despite the narrative some fans seem to have around Saints not being as good as under Holbrook, I think Woolfs Saints are much more “NRL like” and probably wouldn’t fluff some of the chances we did in that game. Whether that’s enough is another conversation, which is why I say I would really like another shot at the WCC next year if we win next week. I will avoid commenting on the Leeds team too much, but I think there is a big difference between Mata’utia/ Sironen and Martin/ Bentley. Not least, Martin/ Bentley are both primarily right sided second rowers and don’t see eithers game translating particularly well to the left side of the field (though could easily be wrong). I said my piece on Bentley when the rumours first arose about him moving (really excellent defender and lots of industry (second best behind Knowles at Saints), but limited in attack and haven’t seen much line running from him in his time at Saints…), and whilst I quite like Martin, he was outplayed by Mata’utia and Batchelor. If Sironen is a hit (as a 17st, 6ft5 wider running backrower should) he will offer us more overall. I’m not sure how Bentley can be a big loss for us, given we have played without him for basically the whole year already? I’m don’t think he would have been the difference in any of the games we lost this year which is surely the measure of “missing” someone? Welsby will be fullback next year, it was already announced by Woolf (https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2021/07/29/w ... k-in-2022/) and if Hopoate doesn’t perform (and I trust Woolf to have the best chance of having him perform) then Hurrell, Simm or Shay Martyn take his place - that’s not bad depth …

Re: SL GF E | St Helens (A) : Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:45 pm  

Our spine is completely busted. Miracle we got to semi. Pointless comparing us to a fully fit Saints