Problem players : Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:07 am  

I know a lot of weeks we talk about our weak pack etc. and players not being good enough. Which players do we deem not good enough?

As it stands, other than Handley, Croft and Ackers, I am not sure which players I would be overly concerned about losing.

I think in the backs clearly Frawley and Fusitua should go. There are question marks over Momorovski and Miller and Newman is not playing anywhere close to his potential.

I think forward wise, we need a clear out of small players i.e. Donaldson, Goudemand, Bentley and possibly, O'Connor. I would replace Sangare and agree with some that Lisone appears to be a flat track bully. Oledski, Holroyd and Smith then need to start upping their games.

A review of project / young players then needs to be looked at in terms of Roberts, Ruan, Johnson, Sinfield, TNW, Hudson and Warren.

Whats your current assessment of the playing group?

Re: Smith out ASAP : Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:07 am  

England coach is fine, but it's not exactly the same thing. Wane can pick a new squad every year for England. If we want to be the best in the comp I think we need to aim higher. I'd take him as interim cover if a vacancy emerges, but usually interim replacements come from within. God help us (literally) if JJB is back at the helm.

[Ex-Swarcliffe Rhino]

Re: Problem players : Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:36 am  

I think with a more simple game plan and an end to these pathetic shortcut trick plays were now renowned for that we wouldn't actually be a bad side.

Were trying to reinvent the wheel when we really just need to drop the gimmicks and get back to some simple, grind it out rugby league at least until we get our feet back under ourselves. Were trying desperately to adhere to a style that we cant possibly continue with and running ourselves ragged and up our own bootys trying to score off every play and its just not sustainable.

Re: Problem players : Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:38 am  

In the backs, no major complaints, but some concerns. Miller is worth persevering with IMO. I like Momirovski but he would benefit from a longer-run. He's obviously not a blockbusting Senior style centre but I think he could be a good winger's centre given time and more opportunities. Handley is probably one of the first names on the team sheet.

It's surely time for Leeds to move Fusitua on. He's a welcome presence on the wing (and in the air) when fit, but his tendency to rush in field to put in a big hit has left us exposed too often, as illustrated against Hull. I was in favour of keeping him but after the injuries this season it is just too much - we can't waste a quota spot on someone with his record.

Newman is the big concern in the backs. He's a shadow of the player who was monstering Field and French and ripping the top clubs to shreds (when fit) last season. Is he carrying a knock, or is it something else? Since signing his new deal he has been substandard. He should be our Senior-style centre. I'd forgive his selfishness with the ball and bad attitude if he could get back to impacting games like he used to, now he's just anonymous.

Halves. Croft is great, as evidenced by the high number of try assists. We need to build a game around him a lot more. I'm not that bothered about Frawley - I think he's been solid, all the more so after being dropped. I suspect we'd see a lot more from both halves if the pack was more dominant.

As far as the forwards are concerned, they should be as nervous as Smith is about whether or not they will be retained. I think we're fine at hooker with a fit Ackers and O'Connor and Johnson. Johnson looks sharper when I've seen him recently and deserves a lot more game time IMO. As for the rest:

Oledski - individually there's room for improvement, but he would really benefit from a 30 something senior pack leader alongside him.
Holroyd - still young, but despite some promising shows early last season I don't think he's ready to be a first choice starting prop, and needs to build time coming off the bench.
Lisone - not a good value signing IMO. Doesn't spend long enough on the field, and his discipline is atrocious for a senior forward. Hopefully we can replace.
Sangare - a promising signing because of his size and age, but he needs to improve in terms of impact and go-forward to justify a new contract IMO.
Goudemand - solid enough but what does he add that the other backrow types can't already do? A weak signing IMO.
Bentley - has been missed for his defence and gritty attitude.
Martin - our best forward, but we might have to sacrifice him to bring in a pack leader from the NRL.
Gannon - also badly missed but I wouldn't want him to come back in until the current malaise has been addressed.
McDonnell - He's become a shadow of the player we saw last season. Probably needs a rest but his deficiencies have been exposed this season (lack of size / pace). We need better players than this to be in the first 13. Ultimately he's a younger version of Donaldson and should be used in a similar way from the interchange bench (not covering the front row though!)
Cam Smith - As big a concern as Newman, IMO. He's too small to be an international class 13 and too slow to get near the halves. Maybe taking him out of the firing line as captain would help his form? Give Croft or Martin (if he stays) the captaincy.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:26 am  

Exeter Rhino wrote:

Leeds need to be aiming to be the best, not just catching up with Wigan and Saints etc. If Wane is so good why hasn't he been a head coach for years? Why isn't he head coach at Wigan? He's just another name on a merry go round that gets mentioned after every coach comes under pressure. 10 years ago it was Brian Noble. No thanks.

The next appointment has to be done right, especially if it is going to be a mid-season one. I'd prefer an interim coach if it is decided that Smith has to go, rather than going with another SL journeyman coach. If we're going down that route Rowley would be preferable. Hopefully not McNamara either but somehow he has managed to extend his career beyond others who have achieved more in the past.

A bit unwarranted on Wane, he has only had a successful coaching career. He left Wigan to go to Union (although i do think the time was right to change), he was never sacked and won plenty of silverware with us even with teams that on paper should have been nowhere near a title.

For the record, i think the only job that Wane would leave his current position for is an NRL head coaching gig, and the only chance he has of getting that would be a series win / world cup win over Australia. At the moment though he is living the dream really. Part time job at his hometown club that is in a period of success, free attendance to all his hometown club's games, free attendance to many games actually around Super League so that he can watch players and still dabbles in a bit of coaching with England. Why would he leave?

On Smith, i have never been a fan since you signed him on. I think he comes across as arrogant in his interviews, almost as if he is too good for the league and we should be lucky he is here, probably galvanised in his head by the brilliant run you guys had when he first signed. I feel i would dislike him just as much if he was the Wigan coach.

Hope your players have the decency to really put a shift in this week and make a true occasion for Burrow and his family, with or without Rohan Smith.

Re: Problem players : Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:51 am  

Exeter Rhino wrote:

In the backs, no major complaints, but some concerns. Miller is worth persevering with IMO. I like Momirovski but he would benefit from a longer-run. He's obviously not a blockbusting Senior style centre but I think he could be a good winger's centre given time and more opportunities. Handley is probably one of the first names on the team sheet.

It's surely time for Leeds to move Fusitua on. He's a welcome presence on the wing (and in the air) when fit, but his tendency to rush in field to put in a big hit has left us exposed too often, as illustrated against Hull. I was in favour of keeping him but after the injuries this season it is just too much - we can't waste a quota spot on someone with his record.

Newman is the big concern in the backs. He's a shadow of the player who was monstering Field and French and ripping the top clubs to shreds (when fit) last season. Is he carrying a knock, or is it something else? Since signing his new deal he has been substandard. He should be our Senior-style centre. I'd forgive his selfishness with the ball and bad attitude if he could get back to impacting games like he used to, now he's just anonymous.

Halves. Croft is great, as evidenced by the high number of try assists. We need to build a game around him a lot more. I'm not that bothered about Frawley - I think he's been solid, all the more so after being dropped. I suspect we'd see a lot more from both halves if the pack was more dominant.

As far as the forwards are concerned, they should be as nervous as Smith is about whether or not they will be retained. I think we're fine at hooker with a fit Ackers and O'Connor and Johnson. Johnson looks sharper when I've seen him recently and deserves a lot more game time IMO. As for the rest:

Oledski - individually there's room for improvement, but he would really benefit from a 30 something senior pack leader alongside him.
Holroyd - still young, but despite some promising shows early last season I don't think he's ready to be a first choice starting prop, and needs to build time coming off the bench.
Lisone - not a good value signing IMO. Doesn't spend long enough on the field, and his discipline is atrocious for a senior forward. Hopefully we can replace.
Sangare - a promising signing because of his size and age, but he needs to improve in terms of impact and go-forward to justify a new contract IMO.
Goudemand - solid enough but what does he add that the other backrow types can't already do? A weak signing IMO.
Bentley - has been missed for his defence and gritty attitude.
Martin - our best forward, but we might have to sacrifice him to bring in a pack leader from the NRL.
Gannon - also badly missed but I wouldn't want him to come back in until the current malaise has been addressed.
McDonnell - He's become a shadow of the player we saw last season. Probably needs a rest but his deficiencies have been exposed this season (lack of size / pace). We need better players than this to be in the first 13. Ultimately he's a younger version of Donaldson and should be used in a similar way from the interchange bench (not covering the front row though!)
Cam Smith - As big a concern as Newman, IMO. He's too small to be an international class 13 and too slow to get near the halves. Maybe taking him out of the firing line as captain would help his form? Give Croft or Martin (if he stays) the captaincy.

Agree with most of this and Ex-Swarcliffe Rhinos. To be honest, until we get a coach enabling players to play to their best, it is hard to judge players like Newman, Miller, Frawley, Oledzki. Under someone like Rowley, a lot of them could be much different players.

I think players like Donaldson, Goudemand, O'Connor, Lisone and Sangare will look the same whoever coaches them.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:55 am  

I think you are right with Wane, albeit if he came to Leeds for say three years and got us trophies, I think his chances at the NRL would be much higher.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Mon Jun 17, 2024 11:17 am  

No DOR would employ Wane outside of Wigan. Peet has discovered who the real boss is - no way Wane is taking orders from a DOR!!

Given Leeds' appalling record of treating overseas players and coaches plus a substandard squad will they be able to attract a top NRL coach - who has to report to a DOR with no NRL experience?

Re: Smith out ASAP : Mon Jun 17, 2024 11:29 am  

Exeter Rhino wrote:

Leeds need to be aiming to be the best, not just catching up with Wigan and Saints etc. If Wane is so good why hasn't he been a head coach for years? Why isn't he head coach at Wigan? He's just another name on a merry go round that gets mentioned after every coach comes under pressure. 10 years ago it was Brian Noble. No thanks.

The next appointment has to be done right, especially if it is going to be a mid-season one. I'd prefer an interim coach if it is decided that Smith has to go, rather than going with another SL journeyman coach. If we're going down that route Rowley would be preferable. Hopefully not McNamara either but somehow he has managed to extend his career beyond others who have achieved more in the past.

It's an interesting point, but I don't think there is such thing as a "best" coach - the universal man. It's a bit like "best" car - well it depends on what you need doesn't it?

Almost all coaches have a shelf life, where their voice in the end becomes less heard, and their little weirdnesses become a problem. We can sign coaches which have had great success in the past, but won't replicate that at Leeds.

In this aspect I can see some logic in paying less money and taking more of a risk on an up and coming coach.

For what Leeds need right now, I actually disagree it's a ball-buster. I think it's someone who can be disciplinarian when needed, but will get behind the lads and form relationships. We have a lot of youngsters coming through and they need someone they can respect, who has been around the block a few times, but understands how to relate to them too.

For me Brad Arthur would be a good fit, if and when RS departs.

Re: Problem players : Mon Jun 17, 2024 11:33 am  

The quality isn't there - and until we can attract better players especially in the forwards these struggles will continue. Add to the lack of playing quality with an even worse coaching set up and we have what we see each week. No quality, no fluency, no ideas and no structure. You can't make donkey's into thoroughbreds.