Re: 2022 | Head Coach talk : Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:48 pm  

D4mo78 wrote:

The problem hasn't been the development of young players, it's been the transition into the first team and maintaining the development. I'd say this has gone back years (Sutcliffe the perfect example, Stevie Ward - whilst being quality wasn't developed into the player he could have been, you could even question if Watkins reached the levels we expected).

Johnson is a quality hooker. Smith is a quality loose (if he switches on his brain a bit more), granted there's been a lack of half, but that could be down to who we could attract.

Not disputing there need to be changes in the club, but there doesn't need to be an over reaction and total clean out. There are some good things going on which shouldn't be over shadowed by the poor performance further up in the club.

And Butterill is a quality bloke with the right ethos and mindset to the game. He's the perfect person to shape you players

Surely taking young players from outstanding young players at amateur clubs to the professional level is what youth development is all about - how much development input is Butterill actually having and how much is the work of the amateur clubs and the players natural talent? You are saying its the senior development - at what age do they go into that 17 - so how much influence does Butterill actually have? They maybe great at 16 but realistically how much of that is down to the Rhinos and how much is down to East Leeds, Oulton, Parkside etc.

Johnson has yet to prove anything at senior level and Smith is a very poor mans Morgan Smithies or Morgan Knowles - please be realistic about players and their abilities

Re: 2022 | Head Coach talk : Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:20 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

If a business was losing money do you pat the directors on the back because they are doing the day to day - grow up please

They aren't the directors, they are the employees. Some of them relatively low-level at that. Sorry if your simplistic, context-free "sack everyone" dirge isn't finding much favour amongst us grown ups.

Re: 2022 | Head Coach talk : Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:43 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

Their job is to produce a top class side that performs to its potential - even Stevie Wonder can see that is not happening - we don't need to see the intracacies of the day to day - the outputs are there for all to see - Leeds are second bottom of a very average SL. If a business was losing money do you pat the directors on the back because they are doing the day to day - grow up please

A business losing money doesn’t mean everything and everyone in the organisation is bad.

Re: 2022 | Head Coach talk : Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:37 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

Surely taking young players from outstanding young players at amateur clubs to the professional level is what youth development is all about - how much development input is Butterill actually having and how much is the work of the amateur clubs and the players natural talent? You are saying its the senior development - at what age do they go into that 17 - so how much influence does Butterill actually have? They maybe great at 16 but realistically how much of that is down to the Rhinos and how much is down to East Leeds, Oulton, Parkside etc.

Johnson has yet to prove anything at senior level and Smith is a very poor mans Morgan Smithies or Morgan Knowles - please be realistic about players and their abilities

Im not an expert but i presume the outstanding young kids at amateur are playing the outstanding young kids from amateur. As we see, it's not as if players just join their local professional team so there's decent competition that he gets his team playing well in.

He's the one heading up the coaching at 15 and 16. Then they go to the Academy where we've had a host of former players shoehorned in. The difference with Butterill is that he's come through the amateur game and learnt his trade. He understands the link between amateur and the pros and starts that transition off. I'm not convinced we've had the continuation at Academy (except for Rob). It seems to be something we struggle with generally over here and I've always wondered why the Aussies are so much better at it. But Saints seem to be excelling at it too now.

I agree that we have players with potential and who are yet to reach the standards of others elsewhere. But I'm not convinced the problem is at scholarship level. My point was that we have players in those positions who could go on to be top quality. I don't know if they'll be managed in the right way to achieve it

Re: 2022 | Head Coach talk : Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:54 pm  

christopher wrote:

A business losing money doesn’t mean everything and everyone in the organisation is bad.

No it doesn't but it does indicate that the people at the top aren't doing a great job and perhaps its time for a change

Re: 2022 | Head Coach talk : Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:55 pm  

D4mo78 wrote:

Im not an expert but i presume the outstanding young kids at amateur are playing the outstanding young kids from amateur. As we see, it's not as if players just join their local professional team so there's decent competition that he gets his team playing well in.

He's the one heading up the coaching at 15 and 16. Then they go to the Academy where we've had a host of former players shoehorned in. The difference with Butterill is that he's come through the amateur game and learnt his trade. He understands the link between amateur and the pros and starts that transition off. I'm not convinced we've had the continuation at Academy (except for Rob). It seems to be something we struggle with generally over here and I've always wondered why the Aussies are so much better at it. But Saints seem to be excelling at it too now.

I agree that we have players with potential and who are yet to reach the standards of others elsewhere. But I'm not convinced the problem is at scholarship level. My point was that we have players in those positions who could go on to be top quality. I don't know if they'll be managed in the right way to achieve it

The top players will rise to the top, don’t worry about that…..

Re: 2022 | Head Coach talk : Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:01 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

They aren't the directors, they are the employees. Some of them relatively low-level at that. Sorry if your simplistic, context-free "sack everyone" dirge isn't finding much favour amongst us grown ups.

So are you saying JJB, Long, Walker are low level employees? This is a sports club these are key people - this club has been in decline since 2015 - how long do you persist with the same group - perhaps that is a bit too grown up a concept for you to grasp.

The changes needed in this club are radical a bit like when Graham Murray came - this culture cannot evolve into something approaching the professionalism of Saints with the current set up.

Re: 2022 | Head Coach talk : Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:54 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

The changes needed in this club are radical a bit like when Graham Murray came - this culture cannot evolve into something approaching the professionalism of Saints with the current set up.

Would that be the same Graham Murray who retained all of the existing coaching staff and had the previous head coach still at the club working in the background?

Re: 2022 | Head Coach talk : Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:04 am  

Two things are certain. 1 whoever gets the job wont be at Graham Murray's level (sorry Zoo Zoo) and secondly those of us who was lucky to be Leeds fans at that time will never forget it.

The way that bloke united the whole club and made everybody feel they was part of it was unbelievable.

Prior wouldnt have been doing 3 carries for 13 metres under Muzza i know that much lol.

Re: 2022 | Head Coach talk : Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:10 am  

I wonder if Shaun Wane is a strong candidate you know… it would be a good one imo I’ve always rated him. Very good with developing players