Re: Segayaro : Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:22 pm  

Gotcha wrote:

I am unsure what relevance compariing points conceeed this year to a previous year has? most teams are crap this year, the attacking quality is abysmal. If points conceeded wasn't less I would see it has going back, but conceeding much more I see no excuses over.

Lets not kid ourselves, most teams were crap last year as well, the difference between the total amount of points scored last year and the amount scored this year is negligible (36)

It would seem, shall we say 'convenient' for us to be looking at conceding 99 more points as the problem, when we scored 350 points less.

One thing proven beyond doubt with this club this year, is just how important a role an out and out hooker is to a team. Relegation would have been our outcome without Segayaro's arrival.

You seem almost disappointed we have improved, its not long since you were banging on about how we were worse than Wakefield last year.

Re: Segayaro : Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:27 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

You know where Sinfield used to defend? There.

A couple of obvious flaws. Sinfield doesn't play for us anymore, are we saying any old HB can go defend at loose? Jordan Lilley perhaps? Even when Sinfield was still here you clearly couldn't ask him to defend in the middle every week at his age, one thing to do it in his 20's....mid 30's is another thing, no way would he last. Also what happens to your attack if one of your HB's has knackered himself out doing silly amounts of tackles against opposition forwards? Don't say it use to work because it didn't. When Sinfield was at loose we still had McGuire and Burrow along with Sinfield in the attacking line to share duties.....if Burrow was at DH that leaves McGuire with a knackered worn out Sinfield next to him.

SmokeyTA wrote:

I think as much goes through the hooker as first receiver? Do you think passing from Dummy half is some super difficult and important skill? If so how did Falloon manage to have a 8 year career in the toughest league in the world doing it? Are we now pretending Segeyaro's passing from dummy half is wonderful? We ignoring the (4 is it now) forward passes. The pass on debut that win our own twenty that went to no-one?
if a hookers job is so prescriptive why did Daryl Clarke struggle in his first season at Wire? How did it take him so long to adjust to doing the same job?

If you want to look daft and like you've only started watching RL about a month ago by making out that the work and passing at dummy half isn't a skill and any old player could do it then so be it, those of us with common sense and knowledge of RL will disagree.

Re: Segayaro : Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:35 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Again, i can only point to what has actually happened. A team covering all three of lilley, McGuire and Burrow, over 23 rounds, conceded only 99points more than they did their treble winning year.

How many games has McGuire played this year btw? You make it sound like those three have been the 6,7,9 every week. The points against would've been much higher had it not been for the strong end to the season. 0 & 6 points conceded vs Salford and Wakey.....Falloon was back in the team, Segeyaro comes in and we concede only 15 & 16 against Hull and Wigan. When we beat Saints and Hull at home earlier in the year just 18 points both times.....Falloon started.

Your point about total points is flawed because most of our lowest conceded totals this year came when a proper hooker played and defended in the middle.

Guess who was starting hooker when we conceded 52 points vs Warrington and Cas and 56 vs Widnes......yes Mr Burrow.

Re: Segayaro : Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:42 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

A couple of obvious flaws. Sinfield doesn't play for us anymore, are we saying any old HB can go defend at loose? Jordan Lilley perhaps? Even when Sinfield was still here you clearly couldn't ask him to defend in the middle every week at his age, one thing to do it in his 20's....mid 30's is another thing, no way would he last. Also what happens to your attack if one of your HB's has knackered himself out doing silly amounts of tackles against opposition forwards? Don't say it use to work because it didn't. When Sinfield was at loose we still had McGuire and Burrow along with Sinfield in the attacking line to share duties.....if Burrow was at DH that leaves McGuire with a knackered worn out Sinfield next to him.

No we are specifically, and had you been able to read properly you would be well aware) not saying that. Lilley is neither a good enough defender nor in offence right now.

THough i have to question how having Sinfield Mcguire and Burrow sharing those share those duties didnt work because Sinfield had McGuire and Burrow share those duties with him.

Just as a little stat that might be relevant, Kevin Sinfield was our top tackler every year of the threepeat. He has been a top 5 tackler in 10 of his last 12 seasons. The other two he was 6th and 8th. It did work ok.

If you want to look daft and like you've only started watching RL about a month ago by making out that the work and passing at dummy half isn't a skill and any old player could do it then so be it, those of us with common sense and knowledge of RL will disagree.

I mean it is a skill that Beau Falloon did for 7 years in the NRL.

And didnt you tell me we went with Adam Cuthbertson as a hooker in the challenge cup final?

Re: Segayaro : Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:44 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Again, i can only point to what has actually happened. A team covering all three of lilley, McGuire and Burrow, over 23 rounds, conceded only 99points more than they did their treble winning year. This idea that three creative players, cannot be covered by the 13 over players in a squad just doesnt make sense ( i would also point out here that technically Burrow is a fantastic defender. Physicality is obviously a problem but he isnt a bad defender as such, probably better than McGuire or Lilley) Because defensively they have, and were.

But lets play your mental game. Take Segeyaro out of this team and lose 30 tackles. What do we do? Well you can move your centres inside. Kallum Watkins for instance has made nearly 600 tackles this year.

Now the criticism of this has been that this has taken away from Watkins offensive strengths, but its only 150 more than he made last year. A hundred more than Moon made last year. 130 more than he made in 2014 and 2013. Its only 50 more than moon made in 2013,

Lets go back a bit further and look at when we have had these great hookers defending the midde, 2004, Matt Diskin tops the tackle charts.2nd on that chart, Kevin Sinfield (playing primarily at standoff), 4th on that chart? Keith Senior, centre, 5th Danny Mcguire another half, 7th Chev Walker centre. 8th Rob Burrow. In a year we absolutely dominated, 4 of our top 8 tacklers were backs, plus Burrow. How can that be if certain players, playing in certain positions need to be the one to making those tackles?

But numbers don't tell the whole story, although extra tackles for Watkins or whoever don't look like loads, it is the impact they have and the impact that can be seen by everyone when burrow plays large minutes at hooker.

In terms of the stats you've quoted they aren't really a direct comparison as subs were high then resulting in forwards doing less game time and therefore less tackles.

What it does show is that the guy you name at hooker is expected to tackle. It also shows that halves get targeted in defence a lot, and a lot of the time centres are the ones who spend time covering them. But everyone knows that.

Re: Segayaro : Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:49 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

How many games has McGuire played this year btw? You make it sound like those three have been the 6,7,9 every week. The points against would've been much higher had it not been for the strong end to the season. 0 & 6 points conceded vs Salford and Wakey.....Falloon was back in the team, Segeyaro comes in and we concede only 15 & 16 against Hull and Wigan. When we beat Saints and Hull at home earlier in the year just 18 points both times.....Falloon started.

Your point about total points is flawed because most of our lowest conceded totals this year came when a proper hooker played and defended in the middle.

Guess who was starting hooker when we conceded 52 points vs Warrington and Cas and 56 vs Widnes......yes Mr Burrow.

So even the universally derived as poor Falloon was able to make a difference to our defence. I didn't realise he'd played in most of our early season wins. And also just before Hardaker went. Still I'm sure it was a coincidence.

Re: Segayaro : Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:54 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

You seem almost disappointed we have improved, its not long since you were banging on about how we were worse than Wakefield last year.

Why would anyone be dissapointed we improved enough to avoid relegation? thank god we signed an hooker that made that happen. We were worse than Wakey last year, again before that hooker signing who is simply off a different planet to any one else in this side.

Re: Segayaro : Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:56 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

How many games has McGuire played this year btw? You make it sound like those three have been the 6,7,9 every week. The points against would've been much higher had it not been for the strong end to the season. 0 & 6 points conceded vs Salford and Wakey.....Falloon was back in the team, Segeyaro comes in and we concede only 15 & 16 against Hull and Wigan. When we beat Saints and Hull at home earlier in the year just 18 points both times.....Falloon started.

Your point about total points is flawed because most of our lowest conceded totals this year came when a proper hooker played and defended in the middle.

Guess who was starting hooker when we conceded 52 points vs Warrington and Cas and 56 vs Widnes......yes Mr Burrow.

Didnt we concede 38 against Sts with Falloon in the side? Didnt we concede 28 to London with Segeyaro? Wasnt it JJB, a better defender than any of them, who started at 9 against Wigan and we conceded 40?

Who was hooker when we only concede 12 to warrington? Its almost like anyone could pick a result out and decide it representative of something, and anyone could invent an alternate reality where something different happened and pretend it backed them up.

Re: Segayaro : Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:01 pm  

Gotcha wrote:

Why would anyone be dissapointed we improved enough to avoid relegation? thank god we signed an hooker that made that happen. We were worse than Wakey last year, again before that hooker signing who is simply off a different planet to any one else in this side.

Other than the fact we had already gained more points than Wakefield before Segeyaro arrived, as well as conceding fewer.

Thhough i agree, signing a great player was great for us.

Re: Segayaro : Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:05 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

......and anyone could invent an alternate reality where something different happened and pretend it backed them up.

I can't argue with that.