Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Sun Apr 07, 2024 1:22 pm  

Bobtownrhino wrote:

All the above is up for debate but looking at facts

R Smith and Gawwy claim they now have great signings and clarity of a way forward
R Smith has had over 2 Years to make his mark and design the play.

Sam Burgess has inherited a Daryl Powell Keystone cops outfit (What Powell does best is ruin teams) SB has added a few good players and in 3 months has pulled Wire together

RESULT Total humiliation of Leeds team that looked like a bunch of 18 guys who just met that day for a local pub team runaround

TELL ME What has Rohan Smith achieved other than modelling most of the OXEN merchandise on Sky tv claiming “We played well but got totally blown off the park?”

OKAY:

1) cleared out a load of dead wood, sometimes quite brutally
2) brought the whole club together more from all the different sides
3) brought in some good quality players (not enough)
4) dealt with a lot of bad luck and adversity (injuries and unrest) mostly out of his control

SB has done a good job with Wire for sure so far. I’d like a Leeds side that plays that way because he loves his defence.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Sun Apr 07, 2024 7:41 pm  

batleyrhino wrote:

We actively do not use the forwards to drive the ball in. This is why they have only a few runs and hardly any metres. The backs do the ball work under Smith, and then they are also expected to score the points on miracle plays, whilst the forwards are passive in defence inviting the opposition to make metres at will. Our forwards are simply not performing and the game plan is nonsense.

The injury to Handley was always coming under Rohan Smith. His workload carrying the ball out of defence has been ridiculous, he’s been making carries the forwards should have been doing for far too long. The props seem to be able to hide for long periods under Rohan Smith and will continue to do so.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Sun Apr 07, 2024 8:53 pm  

Didn’t get to see the game and not bothered to watch it back after seeing the result.

Very disappointing result, didn’t expect us and Wire to be too far apart this season.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:54 pm  

batleyrhino wrote:

We actively do not use the forwards to drive the ball in. This is why they have only a few runs and hardly any metres. The backs do the ball work under Smith, and then they are also expected to score the points on miracle plays, whilst the forwards are passive in defence inviting the opposition to make metres at will. Our forwards are simply not performing and the game plan is nonsense.

Saw a stat today that said Handley having only played 28mins was our top metre maker… I mean wtf..a big game at home.. deary me.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Mon Apr 08, 2024 9:56 am  

Trebor1 wrote:

Saw a stat today that said Handley having only played 28mins was our top metre maker… I mean wtf..a big game at home.. deary me.

Stats don't tell the whole story though do they - Handley had one almost length of the field break which will massively skew his numbers.

I don't think the stats to justice to the work of Holroyd and McDonnell sometimes either. They indicate but they're not the gospel without game context being applied too. Over a whole season they make more sense.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Mon Apr 08, 2024 10:03 am  

KaeruJim wrote:

OKAY:

1) cleared out a load of dead wood, sometimes quite brutally
2) brought the whole club together more from all the different sides
3) brought in some good quality players (not enough)
4) dealt with a lot of bad luck and adversity (injuries and unrest) mostly out of his control

SB has done a good job with Wire for sure so far. I’d like a Leeds side that plays that way because he loves his defence.

What evidence do you have that Smith has brought the club together?
What real quality players has he brought in?
The injuries at Leeds are no different to any other side - no better no worse - what bad luck/unrest has he dealt with?

Smith's job is to improve those players he coaches and provide a coherent game plan that delivers results on the field. Can you hand on heart say he has done this?

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Mon Apr 08, 2024 10:35 am  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

What evidence do you have that Smith has brought the club together?
What real quality players has he brought in?
The injuries at Leeds are no different to any other side - no better no worse - what bad luck/unrest has he dealt with?

Smith's job is to improve those players he coaches and provide a coherent game plan that delivers results on the field. Can you hand on heart say he has done this?

1) there were loads of videos and content pre-season with the women's, juniors, PDRL etc sides all coming together. Maybe it was PR but the participants seemed to enjoy it and be bought in to me.
2) Croft, Ackers are proven quality. Miller is a gamble but an upgrade on what we had before. McDonnell is quality. I did say a few!
3) Look at the state of the side with injuries last year and the players who went AWOL/mutinied (our main playmaker, main strike outside back and our ex captain and dummy half??). You don't think that constitutes bad luck and unrest? The wheels fell off the club after the Summer.

Of course Smiths job is to improve the players, and to put together a side which can compete. I've said elsewhere I don't think he's got all the decisions right - but controversially I'd say Donaldson, Goudemand and Bentley were incorrect signings for me. Jury is out on Frawley and Momirovski: I think Miller will come good but he does need some coaching to reduce the brain trumps he can be prone to.

I'm saying it's still too early to make the call on Smith. Lots of you on here have had the knives out for him since Summer last year and are looking for all excuses to stick the boot in frankly, which is fine that's your right. I'd go as far as to say that if Frawley and Momirovski don't work out, it will cost Smith his job. I also have no idea what kind of backing/cheque book GH has given him. For example, losing Walters and losing out on Eseh and Okoro - or some of the better NRL players that have gone to Wire, Cats, Wigan or Saints rather than us... is that a Smith issue or are we just not prepared to pay as a club? I don't know.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Mon Apr 08, 2024 10:38 am  

I went to the Wire game with my 9 year old son - it was my first experience of the new Southstand, and my son's first time watching Leeds/RL live. Miraculously we enjoyed the experience despite the Leeds performance. Only just got my voice back - not used to shouting that much anymore! The new stand/ground is great (view, comfort, facilities etc), but the Southstand seemed a lot quieter than I remember...

Anyway, the game. My first reaction was that it was clearly our worst performance of the season, and we're slipping further into the inconsistency of last season. It was the first time that our defence looked shot, and that's a major concern IMO. Williams played too fast and quite a few of our players couldn't live with it.

Then I watched the game back on Sky, and I agree with Jim that we need to put the game into some perspective. I don't think we were out of it at all until the last 15 minutes. Quite a few calls from the referee that looked dodgy in the Southstand were probably right or just bad luck (Newman's 'high' shot aside). We can't blame it on losing Holroyd and Handley, but these things didn't help, of course.

The good

Was there any? Frawley's kicking is getting better (two kicks directly resulting in the first try). Momirovski is slowly playing himself into form, and he'll get a few tries this season. The double movement decision was probably right but it was still close - he scores that and we're in a different game. Generally we look better with kick options when we do get close to the opposition line. We actually retrieved the ball from two short kick-offs - not that I like this tactic.

The bad

It may not be panic stations yet, but tactically we need to adjust a lot more. It seemed like the referee was making Leeds stand a very long 10m from Warrington at times, while allowing them a very skinny 10m defending us. We need an experienced forward leading the defensive line - maybe this is something Bentley can add that McDonnell doesn't do. Oledski had a couple of nice charges but he's not the pack leader we need. We need to show more intent in defence and taking the ball forward. My patience with the passive defence is wearing thin now, but I don't think it was the main reason we lost.

The ugly

IMO we lost because of the high number of unforced errors we are making with ball in hand, and soft defensive reads, especially close to the ruck defending our line. In this regard, the coach can help by instilling more practise drills but ultimately the players are to blame here for not executing. Lisone was particularly poor in both departments on Friday. I take the point that if we front load energy into being less passive, then we put Wire under pressure and not ourselves (there were moments in the game we did this, but not enough). We have to stop trying to score off every set - again, having a few more experienced heads out there would help. I'm still not sure Cam Smith has the gravitas/respect of a Sinfield or Peacock to inspire the players around him... He'll get there though.

I notice some posters have pointed out that the Golden Generation rarely made so many mistakes. We have to be wary of nostalgia muddying our memories. Let's not forget the GFs won from 5th and 6th place were on the back of some very mediocre league performances, and even the likes of McGuire (flat track bully), Burrow (not a 9), Sinfield (too slow, not big enough), JJB (penalty machine), Webb (forward passes) etc were routinely criticised on these boards for being past it.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:02 am  

Exeter Rhino wrote:

I notice some posters have pointed out that the Golden Generation rarely made so many mistakes. We have to be wary of nostalgia muddying our memories. Let's not forget the GFs won from 5th and 6th place were on the back of some very mediocre league performances, and even the likes of McGuire (flat track bully), Burrow (not a 9), Sinfield (too slow, not big enough), JJB (penalty machine), Webb (forward passes) etc were routinely criticised on these boards for being past it.

Don't forget 'you can stick a fork in Peacock' from around 2011.

Re: RD 7 | Warrington Wolves (H) : Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:14 am  

Exeter Rhino wrote:

I went to the Wire game with my 9 year old son - it was my first experience of the new Southstand, and my son's first time watching Leeds/RL live. Miraculously we enjoyed the experience despite the Leeds performance. Only just got my voice back - not used to shouting that much anymore! The new stand/ground is great (view, comfort, facilities etc), but the Southstand seemed a lot quieter than I remember...

Anyway, the game. My first reaction was that it was clearly our worst performance of the season, and we're slipping further into the inconsistency of last season. It was the first time that our defence looked shot, and that's a major concern IMO. Williams played too fast and quite a few of our players couldn't live with it.

Then I watched the game back on Sky, and I agree with Jim that we need to put the game into some perspective. I don't think we were out of it at all until the last 15 minutes. Quite a few calls from the referee that looked dodgy in the Southstand were probably right or just bad luck (Newman's 'high' shot aside). We can't blame it on losing Holroyd and Handley, but these things didn't help, of course.

The good

Was there any? Frawley's kicking is getting better (two kicks directly resulting in the first try). Momirovski is slowly playing himself into form, and he'll get a few tries this season. The double movement decision was probably right but it was still close - he scores that and we're in a different game. Generally we look better with kick options when we do get close to the opposition line. We actually retrieved the ball from two short kick-offs - not that I like this tactic.

The bad

It may not be panic stations yet, but tactically we need to adjust a lot more. It seemed like the referee was making Leeds stand a very long 10m from Warrington at times, while allowing them a very skinny 10m defending us. We need an experienced forward leading the defensive line - maybe this is something Bentley can add that McDonnell doesn't do. Oledski had a couple of nice charges but he's not the pack leader we need. We need to show more intent in defence and taking the ball forward. My patience with the passive defence is wearing thin now, but I don't think it was the main reason we lost.

The ugly

IMO we lost because of the high number of unforced errors we are making with ball in hand, and soft defensive reads, especially close to the ruck defending our line. In this regard, the coach can help by instilling more practise drills but ultimately the players are to blame here for not executing. Lisone was particularly poor in both departments on Friday. I take the point that if we front load energy into being less passive, then we put Wire under pressure and not ourselves (there were moments in the game we did this, but not enough). We have to stop trying to score off every set - again, having a few more experienced heads out there would help. I'm still not sure Cam Smith has the gravitas/respect of a Sinfield or Peacock to inspire the players around him... He'll get there though.

I notice some posters have pointed out that the Golden Generation rarely made so many mistakes. We have to be wary of nostalgia muddying our memories. Let's not forget the GFs won from 5th and 6th place were on the back of some very mediocre league performances, and even the likes of McGuire (flat track bully), Burrow (not a 9), Sinfield (too slow, not big enough), JJB (penalty machine), Webb (forward passes) etc were routinely criticised on these boards for being past it.

Great post - the only thing I'd quiz is comments re. Bentley v McDonnell. McDonnell was doing a ton of work in D, including on their big men. Bentley is great at filling gaps and getting up and at people, but he doesn't dominate physically like McDonnell can. He also regularly gives penalties and errors away. I know McDonnell dropped the ball once in contact too (Wire were stripping at the ball quite a bit with some success).

Phenomenal tackle to deny Handley another worldy try I thought, and Williams was great. They are a decent side Wire on that evidence.