Re: Segayaro : Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:49 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

But it isnt a 'basic requirement' of being a hooker. There is no basic requirement of a hooker. The team that wins isnt the team that has the hooker who performs 30 tackles a game and gets to dummy half. There is nothing written in the rules of the game that says a hooker needs to make 30 tackles a game.

You're right, there's also nothing written to say a prop has to defend in the middle or that the FB has to drop back 30/40m behind the defensive line, so let's play Mitch Garbutt on the wing and Sutcliffe at left 2nd row when we are defending in the next game. 'Most teams' wouldn't do that and we don't want to be 'most teams' now.

Whilst we're at it why don't we play Galloway at right centre in attack and Watkins at prop in attack, after all Galloway is just a rugby league player who happens to play prop and Watkins is just a rugby league player who happens to play centre.

Re: Segayaro : Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:03 pm  

Barrie's Glass Eye wrote:

Thats not to say that some of these positional expectations haven't changed, especially recently. Props having to do more minutes and be able to pass is a good recent example. But the role of hooker hasn't really changed.

If you want an example look at Peter Wallace at Penrith, moved to 9 this year, but is still expected to defend in the middle and make 30 tackles. If he couldn't have done that I'd doubt he'd have stuck there. He doesn't get hidden out wide.

But Nathan Cleary does. Where as Leeds previously may have needed to hide Burrow, Sinfield was often our top tackler. We could have stuck a 9 on Sinfields back and had that 30 tackle a game hooker. But we would still have played exactly the same way.

With most players there are things you gain and things you lose. You dont dump peak Lauitiiti because he is a lazy defender. You surround him with great defenders like Ellis, like JJB, like Senior, and you cover for his deficiencies through other positions and other players. That is balance.

If you have a great defensive half, you dont need a great defensive hooker. If you have a great creative Fullback, you can go with a workhorse at loose. If you have great creative second rowers, you can go with a defensive minded centre, You can cover the work of bigger forwards if you have big hardworking backs

Re: Segayaro : Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:28 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

You're right, there's also nothing written to say a prop has to defend in the middle or that the FB has to drop back 30/40m behind the defensive line, so let's play Mitch Garbutt on the wing and Sutcliffe at left 2nd row when we are defending in the next game. 'Most teams' wouldn't do that and we don't want to be 'most teams' now.

Whilst we're at it why don't we play Galloway at right centre in attack and Watkins at prop in attack, after all Galloway is just a rugby league player who happens to play prop and Watkins is just a rugby league player who happens to play centre.

Of course we would never have outside backs playing at prop like Roy Asotasi, or Stand offs in the second row like Greg Bird or Steve Menzies, we would never see big 17st centres like Mal Meninga, You wouldnt see a 6ft 2" 18st winger would you. Apart from Manu Vatuvei. You never see a centre move to prop like Gareth Ellis, or a player like Luke Lewis play for Australia on the wing, in the centres, at loose and at 2nd row.

Re: Segayaro : Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:38 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Teams havent only just started putting a big man at loose. This isnt a recent phenomenon. Sinfield, as a ball playing loose, has always been something of a novelty. His whole career people have argued he was too small to be a 'proper loose'

Sinfield at loose was a novelty? Don't talk daft. When he was playing there you had the likes of Paul Sculthorpe, Andy Farrell, Paul Cooke at top teams who were all more in the Sinfield bracket of being ball playing LF's rather than the 'let's stick a prop there to do a load of tackling' LF of today.

Smokey TA wrote:

Roby, Clarke and Houghton dont have the skills Burrow does.

And Burrow doesn't have the skill set they have, which 95% of people would agree is more likely to bring the best out of your forwards in attack and defence. You even said yourself that our forwards dominated last year. Are you seriously going to say that was in spite of who was playing at hooker? Because that goes against all common sense or knowledge about Rugby League.

Re: Segayaro : Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:46 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Of course we would never have outside backs playing at prop like Roy Asotasi, or Stand offs in the second row like Greg Bird or Steve Menzies, we would never see big 17st centres like Mal Meninga, You wouldnt see a 6ft 2" 18st winger would you. Apart from Manu Vatuvei. You never see a centre move to prop like Gareth Ellis, or a player like Luke Lewis play for Australia on the wing, in the centres, at loose and at 2nd row.

Yes and they are able to play those positions in both attack and defence. Gareth Ellis hasn't moved to play prop in attack but still defending as a centre. Players evolve and play different positions, what we're talking about with Burrow isn't evolving, it's comprising....sacrificing others to take up the void he leaves in defence. Ellis' newer role doesn't do that, Bird, Asotasi, Westwood...whoever you want to point out who has moved positions hasn't done that.

What I'm saying going by your "there's no written rule".....lets play Mitch Garbutt at prop in attack but on the wing in defence,

Re: Segayaro : Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:59 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

Sinfield at loose was a novelty? Don't talk daft. When he was playing there you had the likes of Paul Sculthorpe, Andy Farrell, Paul Cooke at top teams who were all more in the Sinfield bracket of being ball playing LF's rather than the 'let's stick a prop there to do a load of tackling' LF of today.

Ah yes, everyone remembers how out of place Sculthorpe was. Lil Paulie they used to call him on account of him only being 6'3. Andy Farrell too, tiny man. God knows how he made it in the pack at only 6'4 and 17stone. Played the game exactly the same as Sinfield he dd and would never get bumped up to prop just to get him in the side. Too small for the pack, too slow for the back, thats ol Faz. Paul Cooke was shorter than Burrow if memory serves me. All played the game the same as Sinfield.

And Burrow doesn't have the skill set they have, which 95% of people would agree is more likely to bring the best out of your forwards in attack and defence. You even said yourself that our forwards dominated last year. Are you seriously going to say that was in spite of who was playing at hooker? Because that goes against all common sense or knowledge about Rugby League.

Burrow doesnt need the skillset they have. As has been proven. For 15 years.

Re: Segayaro : Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:06 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

Yes and they are able to play those positions in both attack and defence. Gareth Ellis hasn't moved to play prop in attack but still defending as a centre. Players evolve and play different positions, what we're talking about with Burrow isn't evolving, it's comprising....sacrificing others to take up the void he leaves in defence. Ellis' newer role doesn't do that, Bird, Asotasi, Westwood...whoever you want to point out who has moved positions hasn't done that.

What I'm saying going by your "there's no written rule".....lets play Mitch Garbutt at prop in attack but on the wing in defence,

Jesus christ have you seen Manu Vatuvei defend? Have you seen Asotasi play? You think Ben Westwood still isnt running at outside backs? You think Greg Bird is playing the same role as Sam Thaiday?

Do you want to see a big 6'2, 16 and a half stone player who defends on the wing but is mostly used as a workhorse up the middle, taking hit ups on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd tackle like a prop?

Re: Segayaro : Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:18 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Menzies was at the Bulls in 2009. I was meaning Greg Bird. Who may have been wearing 13 that day (Centre Adam Mogg was named in the halves) but anyone who watched that game will have seen everything go through Bird

Apologies haha, yeah totally agree about Bird real shame he couldnt get a visa for us saying that though thats the reason Wigan pulled the plug realising he wouldnt

Re: Segayaro : Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:19 pm  

thepimp007 wrote:

Apologies haha, yeah totally agree about Bird real shame he couldnt get a visa for us saying that though thats the reason Wigan pulled the plug realising he wouldnt

Great player though Menzies. Prototypical second rower but could play centres and stand off.

Re: Segayaro : Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:29 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Great player though Menzies. Prototypical second rower but could play centres and stand off.

Definitely Bradford made a massive boob letting him go to Catalans. Can see Stevie Ward form in a similar mould if all his injury troubles are behind him