Re: Enough is enough : Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:54 am  

As there has been some attempt to quantify Leeds 2015 results in relation to who started at stand off the totals I have are these:

McGuire - Played 4, Won 3, Drew 0, Lost 1 ... 75%
Sinfield - Played 23, Won 17, Drew 0, Lost 6 ... 74%
Sutcliffe - Played 9, Won 6, Drew 1, Lost 2 ... 72%

If Burrow in the last second at the John Smith's hadn't slipped on his arris or passed to his support Sutcliffe could have had 78% there but he did slip and stick and ultimately that's what counts.

Re: Enough is enough : Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:57 am  

Kevin Brown showed such great quality at a young age that in 2006 - a year in which they were struggling badly - Wigan sent him on loan to Huddersfield and then allowed him to sign for the Giants permanently despite still having a year left on his contract.

Given that good British half-backs are like rocking horse droppings, I'm not sure why Wigan would allow such a quality player to leave? Unless they weren't prepared to wait for him to mature and were happy to send him off to be someone else's problem?

That worked out well for them, didn't it?

Re: Enough is enough : Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:09 am  

Andy Gilder wrote:

Kevin Brown showed such great quality at a young age that in 2006 - a year in which they were struggling badly - Wigan sent him on loan to Huddersfield and then allowed him to sign for the Giants permanently despite still having a year left on his contract.

Given that good British half-backs are like rocking horse droppings, I'm not sure why Wigan would allow such a quality player to leave? Unless they weren't prepared to wait for him to mature and were happy to send him off to be someone else's problem?

That worked out well for them, didn't it?

We don't have single half back of any real quality playing SL and if Tommy Smith is the best we can muster at international level, we really have hit rock bottom. The game as whole needs to take a long hard look at itself, we are producing athletes but without any real skill.

I read an article about Tim Sheens reviewing Ellis upon his arrival at Wests. Sheens was of the view that Ellis possessed almost none of the basic skills required to play within an NRL structure, although he clearly possessed the basic talent to be developed.

At the time, I dismissed it as a typical Phil Gould type Pom bashing exercise but when you look around the game right now, you have to concede that Sheens was probably right.

Re: Enough is enough : Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:15 am  

Ronzy - I thought Tommy Smith was Adrian Morley

Gotcha wrote:

No, Brown was a very good player at Wigan also. Who replaced him? he still went to his next club and also put in quality performances. He has got better, but he always showed the quality at a young age, and that is the difference from what we are seeing with Sutcliffe. He has never really showed he is a stand off, and that is the argument. Not whether he can get better, or will he succeed in another position, but his ability in the stand off role. If the argument is it will take years, then he needs to play another position in the team to learn before they try him there again, because a championship chasing club can not wait around with poor performances for the player to get better. If he was showing some quality it would be different, but he isn't.

If Sutcliffe is expected to replace Sinfield's stand off role at Leeds - that would be difficult for anyone initially and will take some time if that is the intention. McGuire was best placed to do that albeit from alongside at scrum-half but the injury scuppered that plan. The alternatives at scrum-half have not assisted Sutcliffe the way McGuire would have and the result have been painfully plain to see. However I don't blame Sutcliffe's performances for that.

Brown was a good player and got better, Wigan should have held on (today's Wigan would have albeit only until he left for the NRL perhaps) and Leeds would and should still persevere with Sutcliffe who has the makings of a good player also but he needs support.

Re: Enough is enough : Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:16 am  

Ronzy wrote:

You might be able to level it but not label it, even then you're quite wrong. Gaskell and Sutcliffe were similar only in their rangy stance. Sutcliffe is a much bigger unit and has the strength that goes with it.

I suspect Gaskill's failure had more to do with his attitude than anything else but Saints wouldn't be the first SL club to have shut the door on someone based on short term aspirations.

We've produced one decent half back in the last ten years and at a time when there was no where for hm to go. In any event, I thought the club were wrong then and I bet they have regretted it since, in fact, probably for the last six weeks.

Your opinions are based on personal prejudice, you only have to look at your continued criticism of Burrow for evidence of that. You've written his value to the team off on about five separate occasions to my knowledge and been (noticed the correct use of the word) proved wrong every time.

Oh, and before you go off on one, Burrow was and never will be a creative half back. However, he was and still is, one of the best impact players in the game. IF he is used properly!

So in other words you have nothing to add but a personal opinion, which is fine, yet you have a go at someone else for a personal opinion.

Re: Enough is enough : Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:24 am  

Andy Gilder wrote:

Kevin Brown showed such great quality at a young age that in 2006 - a year in which they were struggling badly - Wigan sent him on loan to Huddersfield and then allowed him to sign for the Giants permanently despite still having a year left on his contract.

Given that good British half-backs are like rocking horse droppings, I'm not sure why Wigan would allow such a quality player to leave? Unless they weren't prepared to wait for him to mature and were happy to send him off to be someone else's problem?

That worked out well for them, didn't it?

They had Danny Orr at the time, and had signed Trent Barrett to follow. We have a salary cap, you can't sit with players hoping when you already have better. Isn't this the exact argument you and others have used as to why we have not given players chances at half back previously from our junior teams? that is exactly what Brown found himself in at Wigan. I am sure they regretted it many times after, but regardless he was miles ahead of Sutcliffe at that age.

Re: Enough is enough : Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:35 am  

Adrian Morley probably has a better passing game than Smith but you can see the similarities.

My recollection of Brown at Wigan was that he had some pace, strength and half decent timing but, above all, he did have potential. To suggest that he was miles ahead of Sutcliffe is ridiculous. For every admiring comment you can find on Brown from that time, I could show you raps for Sutcliffe given by the likes of Sinfield.

Sutcliffe has potential, the club need to find out if he can turn that potential into genuine quality. Otherwise, we could be making the same or a much bigger mistake than Wigan did with Brown.

Re: Enough is enough : Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:42 am  

tvoc wrote:

As there has been some attempt to quantify Leeds 2015 results in relation to who started at stand off the totals I have are these:

McGuire - Played 4, Won 3, Drew 0, Lost 1 ... 75%
Sinfield - Played 23, Won 17, Drew 0, Lost 6 ... 74%
Sutcliffe - Played 9, Won 6, Drew 1, Lost 2 ... 72%

Just noticed Leeds lost a total of 9 games in 2015, anyone know what they are up to as we appoach a third of the season mark in 2016. I wonder whatever happened to those posters who were complacently comparing last season's results to this while trying to convince themselves all's well and that black is really white.

Re: Enough is enough : Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:44 am  

Gotcha wrote:

So in other words you have nothing to add but a personal opinion, which is fine, yet you have a go at someone else for a personal opinion.

Fact - Burrow has proved himself to be a superb impact player and an invaluable asset to Leeds. You wrote him off at the beginning of last year and yet, he contributed much to the success we enjoyed.

Fact - We have produced one decent half back in the last ten years (who didn't stay at the club).

Fact - Gaskell is nothing like Sutcliffe, other than they are both over six feet tall.

I don't mind debating matters and I'm well aware that much of what we discuss is based solely on opinion. You are the one who constantly casts your opinions as facts.

Re: Enough is enough : Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:48 am  

The stats from TVOC would suggest that our problems are not stemming from the SO position, as the team performed fairly consistently with all three options playing in that position.

My opinion is that we have a real problem at acting half and we are lacking a good deal of confidence. Correct those two issues and we will win more games than we lose. At this stage in the redevelopment of the side, that would be acceptable from MPOV.