Re: Make Potter an offer ASAP! : Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:19 am  

mdean wrote:

Mick Potter - jesus I really do give in; I live in fear at the moment that the mindless fervour and all people's conclusions being formed on supposition, rumour and watching 80 minutes a week and there is going to be a forced change for the sake of reacting and it will make matters worse in the long run.

Our team, and I use that word very sparingly, from juniors through to SuperLeague is changing in structures and planning and methodology. You appoint coaches for a variety of reasons including 1st 17 performance but not exclusively.
If you think back to the Matterson era without the rose specs on - he was accused of old boys network and looking after his boys, he was accused of complete ineptitude and if I heard the expression "dead wood" under Matterson once, I heard it a thousand times.
So you bring in a man who in the long term has a reputation for improvement, albeit usually that is at the expense of short term gain. He is clearly not one for reputation or sentimentality, he is simply only prepared to play who earns their spot in his view. Hudson, Jones, Orr, Jackson, Snitch are all ready for off and that is time now.
Goldy and Ferris seemingly will go elsewhere - Arundel has featured so little it makes no difference.
Mitchell has given the indication he doesn't want to move from what I understand, hence he is not featuring.
(Not to mention the calls to "play the kids" Clare was hugely shown up tonight and I understand Basil wanting to let him stay on his confident high in comfort at Leigh and bring him in from the off season and build to the season, as opposed to throw him in and potentially burn him like Clare was last night)

So look at the backdrop of change and look at the tries we conceded in the mid-park. The Winterstien try would have earned the 3 players around him a bollocking at the Panthers on a Saturday afternoon - simply awful - but the players were there. The Davies try - a step right pass left simply awful defending - he ran far enough to get onto the pass, players ball watching not player watching.
The Cross try I think it was too, a simple second man play, Wellsy showed it, there was beconning, shouting and pointing but still Jordy's colleagues failed to react.
Those three tries suggest to me there is/was a plan, the players knew the plan, but didn't effect it. That is the easy part.
Tricky bit is didn't they do it becuase they suck, becuase they don't care or what.

Millward is in exactly the same situation as Royce Simmons was actually, where the squad he has was used to doing things a certain way and it suited them and when someone changed that, the players sulked.
Now when you are Saint's with their accolades, it is difficult as a board to back the coach for the long term and accept some distruption, so they appeased the players and gave them the comfort of doing what they like again to top 6 effect, but not the stellar heights they have been used to.
We on the other hand have been mediocre at best for years and yet our players and supporters seem to want to iron out this disrupted period and get back to gutsy 8th or 9th finishes again? Calls for Kear and Potter make me laugh, Bradford as your excample? A side burining cash faster than Greece and still couldn't BUY a place in the play-off's!

Short term gain over long term evolution? Not for me thanks. I am no apologiser for the heartless twaddle being served up - but you either aspire to do some thing different, change systems, evolve and build or you bring in a tub-thumping no nonsense players man to get you some really modest over achievement occasionally, but ultimately doesn't improve your overall level.

My view, for what it is worth.

I was embarrassed watching our team last night, but this is a great post and I agree with every word. I'm no fan of Millward, but he's clearly trying to change a few things fans have been whinging about for years (players out on the pop, unfit etc). Sure, things aren't changing yet, but once the winter clearout is complete, we might see some results.

The major problem is clearly the players. It's one person's fault that the man of steel wasn't on the pitch last night, and that person isn't Ian Millward

Re: Make Potter an offer ASAP! : Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:42 am  

Even without Chase, losing 40-10 to Widnes is NOT acceptable.

Re: Make Potter an offer ASAP! : Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:56 am  

Gazemous wrote:

:CLAP:

I was embarrassed watching our team last night, but this is a great post and I agree with every word. I'm no fan of Millward, but he's clearly trying to change a few things fans have been whinging about for years (players out on the pop, unfit etc). Sure, things aren't changing yet, but once the winter clearout is complete, we might see some results.

The major problem is clearly the players. It's one person's fault that the man of steel wasn't on the pitch last night, and that person isn't Ian Millward

I agree with it too. I don't think anyone can argue that Millward has a philosophy and a level of professionalism that he's trying to instil at the club, albeit with some apparent opposition from some egos in the dressing room.

The approach the club should be taking, to me seems quite simple. They should remind the playing squad that Ian Millward is the coach of this club until the end of 2014 and if they don't like it, they know where the door is.

As mdean highlighted, it's too easy to settle for mediocrity and I think the players may have had an easy ride in achieving that under Matterson. Millward quite obviously wants to improve things at the club and the players need to get on board.

Re: Make Potter an offer ASAP! : Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:11 am  

mdean wrote:

So you bring in a man who in the long term has a reputation for improvement, albeit usually that is at the expense of short term gain.

When? 14 years ago at Leigh or with a team full of Internationals at Saints?

Nice as it would be to give a coach the luxury of time to build his team, the clock is ticking with regard to a franchise and with no signs on the stadium front, the on field perfomances are crucial.

Of course "people's conclusions being formed on supposition, rumour and watching 80 minutes a week", -but it is the 80 minutes a week that is the key. Do you think people have the patience to watch that dross with their hard earned money every week? Young talents players are continuing to drain away, and with performances like last night who can blame them.

This is not a case of panicking or 'throwing the baby out with the bath water', it is the case that he is not the right man for the job and the attitude of 'well it will be fine in the long run' means that there is a fair chance we will be in the National Leagues. And I personally do not think that the club, the area and the economy will support us coming back to ever been a competitive team.

MDean may think this is a hysterical, knee-jerk reaction but I do not want this club to become another Swinton or Oldham or Fev (no dispresect intended). We are being mis-managed off the pitch and if that happens on the pitch also then I really do fear for where will end up.

Re: Make Potter an offer ASAP! : Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:17 am  

Fearless' Headguard wrote:

Nice as it would be to give a coach the luxury of time to build his team, the clock is ticking with regard to a franchise and with no signs on the stadium front, the on field perfomances are crucial.

I'm afraid I wholeheartedly disagree here. Despite any claims to the contrary it seems blatantly obvious to me that no amount of junior development, on-field performance, community involvement or financial solvency will be of benefit to us in the next round of licenses. If we don't have a new stadium, 2014 will be our last season in Super League.

Re: Make Potter an offer ASAP! : Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:28 am  

Bonzo wrote:

...no amount of junior development, on-field performance, community involvement or financial solvency will be of benefit to us in the next round of licenses. If we don't have a new stadium, 2014 will be our last season in Super League.

I agree to an extent about the die being cast mainly on the ground (frightening prospect though it is), and maybe I am grasping at straws, but surely if (in theory) we end up with either bottom 3 or wooden spoon finishes for the next 2 years, it would make a weak position even weaker?

Re: Make Potter an offer ASAP! : Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:30 am  

MDean - I respect what you are saying. But what does long term mean.....are we talking 5, 10 or 25 years? So many times we've heard the club talk about building for the future, setting the foundations for the future, bringing back the good times. IMO Cas have since SL started and perhaps beyond...simply existed, survived, and not progressed! Amongst this existence we've had brief highs, yet continued lows! The question everyone is asking, is where does it end? When do we actually start to see genuine progression, rather than temporary blips prior to the inevitable slump?

After the big year end clear out, we had better be seeing some good player acquisitions from Millward. I'm not saying mega bucks big names, I'm saying spending money wisely. If not then the fans will again prepare for the reality of further existence without progression and Millward will have even fewer corners to hide, because from the results that we've had so far this year Coco the Clown could have got us the same results.

Re: Make Potter an offer ASAP! : Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:31 pm  

Fearless' Headguard wrote:

When? 14 years ago at Leigh or with a team full of Internationals at Saints?

Nice as it would be to give a coach the luxury of time to build his team, the clock is ticking with regard to a franchise and with no signs on the stadium front, the on field perfomances are crucial.

Of course "people's conclusions being formed on supposition, rumour and watching 80 minutes a week", -but it is the 80 minutes a week that is the key. Do you think people have the patience to watch that dross with their hard earned money every week? Young talents players are continuing to drain away, and with performances like last night who can blame them.

This is not a case of panicking or 'throwing the baby out with the bath water', it is the case that he is not the right man for the job and the attitude of 'well it will be fine in the long run' means that there is a fair chance we will be in the National Leagues. And I personally do not think that the club, the area and the economy will support us coming back to ever been a competitive team.

MDean may think this is a hysterical, knee-jerk reaction but I do not want this club to become another Swinton or Oldham or Fev (no dispresect intended). We are being mis-managed off the pitch and if that happens on the pitch also then I really do fear for where will end up.

Such a mix of arguments, I agree with some and disagree with others, the 80 minutes is important, but not actually key - London have stunk for years, ecomonically, playing wise, league position wise and franchise wise, so the 80 minutes is far from the be all and end all.

Millward has got medals in his cupboard that none of our previous coaches have as a day to day coach and as a Head Coach, they are distincly different jobs.

Secondly, again the "young talent draining......" the evidence simply just does not bear that out. It simply does not. Out UK elligible, Academy developed profile stands up against anyone elses and better than most - You can't keep everyone, Eden went and had a purple patch, but I don't see him in the headlines in the last 8 weeks. Arundel will go and for his contribution this season, wont be missed. In potential terms later will we regret it - maybe but we don't have space for slow burners in a skinny squad. there isn't a constant talent drain.

There is disruption at the moment, mostly between the players ears; there is a huge opportunity here to act in haste and repent at leisure - the franchise system is supposed to support long term strategy and planning, to get a wobble on now would seem to me counter productive.
Off the field there are opportunities to improve without a doubt, they need to be explored and exploited and make some things happen for sure - but the idea that we have to act in haste to save everything now and we're all doomed - is usally the path to being able to repent at leusire. Occasionally it works, extremely rarely.

Sacking Basil would be like endorsing a mutiny right now, you may as well let the players run, coach, manage themselves. I would urge someone to approach the club to do an end of season piece in the program or the P and C "a week on the inside" just go and see for yourself the planning, patterns, training plans, player management, individual tip sheets, match prep and plans for individual opponents and then tell me that we sack Basil and need a Kear or a Potter.... I think a few people's conclusions would change and with respect most people who know better on here have only at best (like me) been a Saturday afternoon hobby man, I have coached teenagers and I was like Wayne Bennet on paper with my plans and patterns - trouble was the 13 idiots in matching shirts didn't do as I told them....

Re: Make Potter an offer ASAP! : Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:37 pm  

the_grobs wrote:

MDean - I respect what you are saying. But what does long term mean.....are we talking 5, 10 or 25 years? So many times we've heard the club talk about building for the future, setting the foundations for the future, bringing back the good times. IMO Cas have since SL started and perhaps beyond...simply existed, survived, and not progressed! Amongst this existence we've had brief highs, yet continued lows! The question everyone is asking, is where does it end? When do we actually start to see genuine progression, rather than temporary blips prior to the inevitable slump?

After the big year end clear out, we had better be seeing some good player acquisitions from Millward. I'm not saying mega bucks big names, I'm saying spending money wisely. If not then the fans will again prepare for the reality of further existence without progression and Millward will have even fewer corners to hide, because from the results that we've had so far this year Coco the Clown could have got us the same results.

I actually think it will be a five year plan and a key element of that is a stadium move. Before any real seachange in state, strategy and overall long term league position will be five years. You may get a reaction between times, but Warrington changed their fortunes over that kind of time. Admittedly, off the field things have to flourish too for that to happen.

Basil I think is doing his part and will do so, just like Royce Simmons was trying to and AVB was trying to for the sake of comparison. Time will tell but I believe in good management and continuity and to balance out the two examples above, if you look at Fergie at the Scum and Moyes at Everton evidence of short term pain for long term development of change can be rewarding. I look at the bin dippers with Rafa, Roy, Kenny and change again - when you get into a cycle of instant gratification like that, unless you have pockets as deep as Chelsea's you are on a hiding to nothing.

Re: Make Potter an offer ASAP! : Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:42 pm  

If you believe in good management then you shouldn't be in favour of Millward being anywhere near the club.

Look at the Wigan players opinions of him, what Long wrote about when Millward was his coach, look at how he handled Mathers...the man is an utter joke and has the man management skills of a dictator.

Good coaches respect the players and the players respect them, looking with how Millward handles things and players opinions on him - neither of that is true with him.