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Re: Liar, Liar ! Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:27 pm  
The Ghost of '99 User avatar
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King Street Cat wrote:
And it was voted through with an absolute majority. Plenty on all sides will have lined their pockets. Wars are profitable, after all.

I'm no defender of Blair or of the Labour Party but let's not forget that 99% of Conservative MPs voted for the Iraq war compared to 75% of Labour MPs.

100% of Liberal Democrats and 100% of SNP MPs, of course, voted against but I doubt 'Steph' supports either of them which makes the whole thing another bit of lazy trolling.
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."
Re: Liar, Liar ! Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:55 am  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:
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The Ghost of '99 wrote:
I'm no defender of Blair or of the Labour Party but let's not forget that 99% of Conservative MPs voted for the Iraq war compared to 75% of Labour MPs.

100% of Liberal Democrats and 100% of SNP MPs, of course, voted against but I doubt 'Steph' supports either of them which makes the whole thing another bit of lazy trolling.


Yes but based on evidence presented by the Labour government that was wildly inaccurate. Most decent people would support action of this nature if they genuinely thought national security was at risk - the fact that more Tories voted for it than Labour surely suggests one group puts the security of its citizens above all other?

It could also be that 25% of the Labour MPs simply didn't believe their leader?
Re: Liar, Liar ! Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:40 am  
The Ghost of '99 User avatar
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Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:
Yes but based on evidence presented by the Labour government that was wildly inaccurate. Most decent people would support action of this nature if they genuinely thought national security was at risk - the fact that more Tories voted for it than Labour surely suggests one group puts the security of its citizens above all other?

It could also be that 25% of the Labour MPs simply didn't believe their leader?

Brilliant.
The ones who voted against were unpatriotic, Labour who voted for were liars and the only virtuous ones were those apparently gullible Conservatives.

I applaud you for this framing, it's genius and echoes one of those most beloved and despicable right wing lies: that people they disagree with don't love their country.
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."
Re: Liar, Liar ! Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:13 am  

User avatarMild Rover wrote:
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Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:
It could also be that 25% of the Labour MPs simply didn't believe their leader?


Very possibly. I know I didn’t either.

The absence of WMD was framed by much of the press that initially supported the war as a surprise. But there was plenty of coverage and expert opinion suggesting that there were few or none well in advance. Not least from the UN weapons inspectors. It was also obvious that while as Sadaam Hussein was a horrible piece of faeces, he had nothing to do with 9/11.

The circumstances and (British) policies that led to the creation of modern Iraq, after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, are interesting. The recent Adam Curtis documentary series touched on it and it is outlined on Wikipedia, of course.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Re: Liar, Liar ! Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:26 am  

User avatarwrencat1873 wrote:
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Mild Rover wrote:
Very possibly. I know I didn’t either.

The absence of WMD was framed by much of the press that initially supported the war as a surprise. But there was plenty of coverage and expert opinion suggesting that there were few or none well in advance. Not least from the UN weapons inspectors. It was also obvious that while as Sadaam Hussein was a horrible piece of faeces, he had nothing to do with 9/11.

The circumstances and (British) policies that led to the creation of modern Iraq, after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, are interesting. The recent Adam Curtis documentary series touched on it and it is outlined on Wikipedia, of course.


Was the evidence that Blair was using not from our "friends" across the pond.
Either way, if America says jump, it's very hard to keep our feet on the ground.

It's the price that we have to pay for their support when we need it.

It wouldn't have mattered who was in power, it would have been impossible to say no, even if, as has been proven since, the WMD simply weren't there.
Re: Liar, Liar ! Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:26 am  

Superblue wrote:
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wrencat1873 wrote:
Was the evidence that Blair was using not from our "friends" across the pond.
Either way, if America says jump, it's very hard to keep our feet on the ground.

It's the price that we have to pay for their support when we need it.

It wouldn't have mattered who was in power, it would have been impossible to say no, even if, as has been proven since, the WMD simply weren't there.


Nail......Head :D

And also all the Tory Arms Dealers pushed it :D
Re: Liar, Liar ! Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:44 am  
The Ghost of '99 User avatar
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wrencat1873 wrote:
Was the evidence that Blair was using not from our "friends" across the pond.
Either way, if America says jump, it's very hard to keep our feet on the ground.

It's the price that we have to pay for their support when we need it.

It wouldn't have mattered who was in power, it would have been impossible to say no, even if, as has been proven since, the WMD simply weren't there.

I don't think this is quite right. Maybe in modern times and obviously with Conservative leaders who would be all-in for any war going but I do think there was something specific to Blair which made him more likely to want to join in than other Labour leaders.

Let's not forget Good Old Mr Wilson who managed to resist the pressure at a much more difficult moment when we were much more reliant on the USA financially but who reversed the previous Conservative government's initial involvement and decisively kept us out of Vietnam.
I don't think that even crossed Blair's mind with regard to Iraq.
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."
Re: Liar, Liar ! Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:07 pm  

User avatarwrencat1873 wrote:
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The Ghost of '99 wrote:
I don't think this is quite right. Maybe in modern times and obviously with Conservative leaders who would be all-in for any war going but I do think there was something specific to Blair which made him more likely to want to join in than other Labour leaders.

Let's not forget Good Old Mr Wilson who managed to resist the pressure at a much more difficult moment when we were much more reliant on the USA financially but who reversed the previous Conservative government's initial involvement and decisively kept us out of Vietnam.
I don't think that even crossed Blair's mind with regard to Iraq.


You may be right about Wilson but, the point still stands.
How much choice do you think that Blair actually had and what may have been going on in the background to help "convince" him to join the Yanks.
It's certainly a fair assumption that ANY Tory PM would have done the same and perhaps only Corbyn on the Labour side of the political line would have said no, had he been PM, which he never got too close to becoming.
Re: Liar, Liar ! Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:32 pm  

User avatarMild Rover wrote:
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wrencat1873 wrote:
You may be right about Wilson but, the point still stands.
How much choice do you think that Blair actually had and what may have been going on in the background to help "convince" him to join the Yanks.
It's certainly a fair assumption that ANY Tory PM would have done the same and perhaps only Corbyn on the Labour side of the political line would have said no, had he been PM, which he never got too close to becoming.


I would have been very difficult to say ‘no’. However, Blair was a very keen advocate. The US would have gone in anyway and it would have been a fiasco (I recommend the book of that title by Thomas E. Ricks) with or without the UK. But it was with the UK thanks in very large part thanks to Blair.

That, along with being asleep at the wheel (see also the entire economic system) for the financial crisis of 2007-2008 and PFI were the major failings of New Labour, imo. Would it have been better under Hague or Duncan-Smith or Howard? Probably not. But that is like trying to shift the blame for Johnson’s failings to Corbyn.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Re: Liar, Liar ! Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:37 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:
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The Ghost of '99 wrote:
Brilliant.
The ones who voted against were unpatriotic, Labour who voted for were liars and the only virtuous ones were those apparently gullible Conservatives.

I applaud you for this framing, it's genius and echoes one of those most beloved and despicable right wing lies: that people they disagree with don't love their country.


Would you say the likes of Corbyn - who voted against are patriotic?

Most knew there was a significant element of doubt but I suppose the inbuilt colonial mentality set in with the Tories - let's kill Johnnie foreigner - is that what you are really trying to say.

The Tories I'm sure didn't agree with Blair but their love/arrogance of/about Britain override common sense.
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