Stop the Beer Escalator! : Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:17 am  

I know beer and rugby league go hand in hand, but do you know the government is still committed to keep ripping beer drinkers off year on year with automatic above-inflation beer duty increases? Of ALL the beer duty paid by ALL the EU countries' beer drinkers, us Brits pay 40% of it already. Meanwhile, pubs and clubs (and the controlled, safe drinking environment they provide) are closing in droves, and gradually a British institution, the pub, is being wiped out. And the price of a pint in a pub is zooming up, while all the time the brewers and supermarkets are allowed to dump millions of gallons of cut price booze to anyone who wants to buy, thus fuelling alcohol-fed disorder and antisocial behaviour. If you want to help, you can, we need to get the CAMRA petition past 100,000 then it has to be debated in Parliament. PLEASE spread the word and sign the petition. At last count about 85,000 had signed so just one last push and something will have been achieved. Cheers http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/29664

I know beer and rugby league go hand in hand, but do you know the government is still committed to keep ripping beer drinkers off year on year with automatic above-inflation beer duty increases? Of ALL the beer duty paid by ALL the EU countries' beer drinkers, us Brits pay 40% of it already. Meanwhile, pubs and clubs (and the controlled, safe drinking environment they provide) are closing in droves, and gradually a British institution, the pub, is being wiped out. And the price of a pint in a pub is zooming up, while all the time the brewers and supermarkets are allowed to dump millions of gallons of cut price booze to anyone who wants to buy, thus fuelling alcohol-fed disorder and antisocial behaviour. If you want to help, you can, we need to get the CAMRA petition past 100,000 then it has to be debated in Parliament. PLEASE spread the word and sign the petition. At last count about 85,000 had signed so just one last push and something will have been achieved. Cheers http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/29664

Re: Stop the Beer Escalator! : Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:17 am  

One conundrum that I've found is, when compared to most EU countries, beers, wines and often spirits can be purchased from a supermarket at lower prices than the UK but when you buy those same products in a bar, they are often at a far greater markup than UK bar prices. So there seems to be a greater profit margin in Europe than in the UK.

Most pubs are closing not because of any smoking ban or cheap booze from supermarkets but because they are poorly-run, crap pubs.

Re: Stop the Beer Escalator! : Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:48 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

pubs and clubs (and the controlled, safe drinking environment they provide)

Every been round Hull, or any other major city, on a Saturday night?

Re: Stop the Beer Escalator! : Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:08 am  

cod'ead wrote:

One conundrum that I've found is, when compared to most EU countries, beers, wines and often spirits can be purchased from a supermarket at lower prices than the UK but when you buy those same products in a bar, they are often at a far greater markup than UK bar prices. So there seems to be a greater profit margin in Europe than in the UK.

A significant amount of the mark up goes towards paying the high social charges in some European countries. In France and Spain in particular the employer is required to pay at least the equivalent of 50% of each of its employee’s wages in employer contribution tax. So, you earn 15k working behind a bar in France your employer pays the state at least 7.5k
That is why family operated bars and restaurants are very prevalent, none or few employees to pay. This was one of the reasons the french government reduced the VAT in 2009 from 19.6% to 5.5% to try and stimulate employment, prices stayed the same but the employer was encouraged to use the increased profit to employ additional staff.

Re: Stop the Beer Escalator! : Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:30 am  

peggy wrote:

This was one of the reasons the french government reduced the VAT in 2009 from 19.6% to 5.5% to try and stimulate employment.

That worked well then.

Re: Stop the Beer Escalator! : Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:36 am  

WIZEB wrote:

That worked well then.

At least the French conservative attempted to stimulate whilst our very own continue down the path of suffocation.

Re: Stop the Beer Escalator! : Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:53 am  

cod'ead wrote:

...

Most pubs are closing not because of any smoking ban or cheap booze from supermarkets but because they are poorly-run, crap pubs.

I would disagree, they can't make it pay in terms of selling enough beer based on the prices they have to pay to buy their beer. In many cases, the building is worth far more to be sold and turned into accommodation than to run as a pub. In many cases pubcos selling a pub insert a clause prohibiting future use as a pub.

If your argument was valid then the pubs would not close, but would be snapped in their thousands up as great potential moneyspinners by astute businessmen who would turn them into well-run, great pubs.

With occasional exceptions, that is not the trend.

CAMRA has a wealth of info on this, as does the All Party Parliamentary Save the Pub Group. I think it is unfair to suggest they are wasting their time to simply try to prop up incompetent licensees.

Re: Stop the Beer Escalator! : Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:49 am  

I'd be inclined to agree with Cod'ead - of the pubs that have closed down around me, none of them are ones that I have particularly "missed". The better pubs, all in the same locally (and therefore, capable of attracting the same sort of clientele) have survived and often seem busier. The reality is that the landlords work bloody hard on ideas to get people in.

The reason that people go to the pub has changed and yet, many landlords haven't. 15-20 years ago, if you wanted to watch Premier League football on a big screen with a beer, you pretty much had to go to the pub to do it. Today, people have all of those amenities (the 40in+ screen, Sky Sports HD, the cheap beer) in their own living room.

I was talking to the landlord in my local a while back and that was pretty much his view. His view was that pubs worked back then because they offered something that people couldn't get at home so he has applied the same principle today. People might have big-screen football at home, put they probably don't have a poker table, a quiz night or a snooker table. If they want that, they have to come to his pub - and it's working for him.

I don't deny that PubCOs are an issue, but I don't necessarily think that the price of a pint is (if it was, Leeds City Centre, Headingley, Pudsey, Horsforth and Chapel Allerton would have a lot of boarded up pubs and bars). The problem is that landlords haven't adapted to what modern customers want from their pub.

Re: Stop the Beer Escalator! : Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:56 am  

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of those arguments, why should British beer drinkers pay 40% of all the beer duty that is raised in the EU, and why should beer duty be on a permanent "above inflation" escalator? That is the rip-off I am complaining about, that's what the petition is about, and that's what is manifestly wrong.

Re: Stop the Beer Escalator! : Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:04 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

I would disagree, they can't make it pay in terms of selling enough beer based on the prices they have to pay to buy their beer. In many cases, the building is worth far more to be sold and turned into accommodation than to run as a pub. In many cases pubcos selling a pub insert a clause prohibiting future use as a pub.

If your argument was valid then the pubs would not close, but would be snapped in their thousands up as great potential moneyspinners by astute businessmen who would turn them into well-run, great pubs.

With occasional exceptions, that is not the trend.

CAMRA has a wealth of info on this, as does the All Party Parliamentary Save the Pub Group. I think it is unfair to suggest they are wasting their time to simply try to prop up incompetent licensees.

I've lived here for over eight years now. There were seven pubs when I moved in and there's still seven pubs now, only one of them is owned by a pubco. Not bad for a town with a population of just over 5,000 and a Lidl, Co-op & Morrisons all flogging booze on various offers.

One pub has changed ownership several times and has also closed it doors a couple of times. It is now more of a cafe bar than a pub but is still very popular and the current licensee, is from a family with other pubs in the area and seems to be making a success of things.

My local has also changed hands three times in the eight years. It was a busy place when I first went in, stayed busy through the 2nd licensee although it ultimately proved too much for her. The lease then moved to a guy who was nothing short of a big, fat, lazy bastad, who was more interested in snorting charlie and playing poker than he was serving drinks. Singlehandedly he managed to drive virtually all the custom away through a mixture of being rude, not cleaning the place and not looking after his beers & ciders. Now when you consider that this particular pub has no other form of income (it is a true 'hole-in-the-wall boozer), you would think that keeping a good pint would be a priority. The owner of the building is a friend of mine and he finally pulled the plug after he was left owed 4 months rent.

It changed hands again in the Spring and the new licensee took a month to clear the place out, re-fit the cellar and give the whole lot a damn good clean. He paid me to clean out and refill the pond in the beergarden and got it looking like somewhere people would want to visit again. He caters for two completely different types of clientele: from 11.00am until 7.00pm it is a typical West Country cider house, after 7.00pm the juke box is switched on, the TVs are switched off and the younger generation take over. Saying that, he doesn't cater to under 25s after 7.00pm. He's kept his prices realistic too, a pint of real ale is £2.90, lagers are £3.20 and his ciders are £2.40 (they were £1.20 when I first moved here). He'll make a good living from the pub, I have no doubts about that.

I'd question pubco's ability to stipulate no pub operations on previously licensed premises, especially when it is so difficult to convert a pub to other uses. Hall & Woodhouse are the biggest estate operator around here and they've been frustrated on all their attempts to change the use of any properties they've sold.