Re: What now for the UK? : Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:38 pm  

billypop wrote:

1) It was THREE generations ago, FFS. In any case if you know your history the Nazis wanted to join with us and the French to sort out the Soviets.

2) I have heard this one before. Is it the end?

I'm not anti-German, I'm just curious into why a lot of these countries are now seemingly content to be ruled by them....By all means co-operate, trade, do what you want, but basically drop your trousers and let them shaft you??.....Yes, the Nazi's may have been keen to have us and the French on their side, but the ultimate plan was German rule, with everybody else very much the junior 'partner'....The same impression is unfortunately coming across now - Sarkozy's grovelling to Merkel just reeks of a man seeking to be closest to the German anus for prime licking position in future years of German dominance.

As for the Titanic analogy, its simple .....Getting off the sinking ship can only be a good thing?.....It ain't staying afloat, and on the slim chance it does, you will be the mug funding the re-build, while those who caused the disaster sit back puffing on their cigars.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:41 pm  

billypop wrote:

Dad's Army....The World at War. Dambusters. The Longest Day...

I'd have to say I have a very soft spot for Dad's Army, among that selection: I think it remains so successful less because it's set during the war and more because it's a very, very astute take on the British class system and attitudes pertaining to that.

billypop wrote:

The war that lost us the Empire and left us in debt to the Yanks. Hmm. Special relationship? Abusive, more like...

Or possibly simply that we're so desperate to be at the 'top table' and be seen as a 'big player' on the global stage that we do anything that Uncle Sam wants?

billypop wrote:

... It's rather sad that we are obsessed and get very excited over a conflict that turned us from the world's leading power into a basket case. But that was our finest hour. I'm sure it was all done in the best interests of the British Empire.

I think it was one of the few cases where we were involved in a war where there was a genuine threat against these islands, so it was about self defence and not about self interest in the traditional imperialist way that had so influenced the building of the empire.

I find it fascinating realising just how many wars we had been involved in – when they didn't actually take place on British land, we've tended to forget them. So we even had our finger in the messy, messy pie that was the Thirty Years War – and indeed, many who learnt their soldiering there went on to use those skills again in the English Civil Wars and in Ireland.

So I think that in that sense, WWII really was our moment of doing it for the right reasons. And in that sense, I understand why it continues to exercise such a hold on the national psyche – and particularly, I suspect, for the English, since their self of self-identity was pretty submerged into empire, in a way that was never quite achieved in the rest of the British Isles, where national identities continued – in some cases, as rallying calls against English dominance of the union.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:48 pm  

Mintball wrote:

I'd have to say I have a very soft spot for Dad's Army, among that selection: I think it remains so successful less because it's set during the war and more because it's a very, very astute take on the British class system and attitudes pertaining to that.

Or possibly simply that we're so desperate to be at the 'top table' and be seen as a 'big player' on the global stage that we do anything that Uncle Sam wants?

I think it was one of the few cases where we were involved in a war where there was a genuine threat against these islands, so it was about self defence and not about self interest in the traditional imperialist way that had so influenced the building of the empire.

I find it fascinating realising just how many wars we had been involved in – when they didn't actually take place on British land, we've tended to forget them. So we even had our finger in the messy, messy pie that was the Thirty Years War – and indeed, many who learnt their soldiering there went on to use those skills again in the English Civil Wars and in Ireland.

So I think that in that sense, WWII really was our moment of doing it for the right reasons. And in that sense, I understand why it continues to exercise such a hold on the national psyche – and particularly, I suspect, for the English, since their self of self-identity was pretty submerged into empire, in a way that was never quite achieved in the rest of the British Isles, where national identities continued – in some cases, as rallying calls against English dominance of the union.

Minty, if the Nazis had wanted to invade the UK then they would have. As it happens they had bigger fish to fry. Thank goodness.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:57 pm  

billypop wrote:

Minty, if the Nazis had wanted to invade the UK then they would have. As it happens they had bigger fish to fry. Thank goodness.

Erm, they did want to invade and we stopped them.

Why try and de-value what our nation did?!

Re: What now for the UK? : Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:06 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

Erm, they did want to invade and we stopped them.

Why try and de-value what our nation did?!

Ermm they didn't.

Did you know that there was a plan to help the Finns against the Soviets before the Nazis wiped out the French and our elite troops?

Re: What now for the UK? : Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:13 pm  

billypop wrote:

Ermm they didn't.

Did you know that there was a plan to help the Finns against the Soviets before the Nazis wiped out the French and our elite troops?

...I think we've found the holocaust denier amongst us on here.....

(Sorry, just kidding....no offence meant...)

Re: What now for the UK? : Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:21 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

:lol: ...I think we've found the holocaust denier amongst us on here.....

(Sorry, just kidding....no offence meant...)

I think we have found a very insensitive @rsehole here, my mum's cousins were gassed by the nazis. If you have any sensitivity you could apologise, but actually I am not too bothered because it was three generations ago.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:52 pm  

billypop wrote:

I think we have found a very insensitive @rsehole here, my mum's cousins were gassed by the nazis. If you have any sensitivity you could apologise, but actually I am not too bothered because it was three generations ago.

Do me a favour.

Go and read some history books. I'm not even going to bother posting a link about Hitler wanting to invade. It would be a complete waste of time.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:57 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

Do me a favour.

Go and read some history books. I'm not even going to bother posting a link about Hitler wanting to invade. It would be a complete waste of time.

ok, I will if you will.

It's my specialist subject, but I don't suppose it'll bother you, will it?

Re: What now for the UK? : Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:11 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

I'm not anti-German, I'm just curious into why a lot of these countries are now seemingly content to be ruled by them....By all means co-operate, trade, do what you want, but basically drop your trousers and let them shaft you??.....Yes, the Nazi's may have been keen to have us and the French on their side, but the ultimate plan was German rule, with everybody else very much the junior 'partner'....The same impression is unfortunately coming across now - Sarkozy's grovelling to Merkel just reeks of a man seeking to be closest to the German anus for prime licking position in future years of German dominance.

It's generally tabloid rhetoric that the "Germans will rule Europe". All these European countries are signing up to joint rules and agreements, and when powers are being transferred they are going from national governments and institutions, to the European institutions. Even the Eurosceptics always talk about power being transferred to Brussels...it's not being transferred to Berlin.

Where the part about German influence comes in is that the Germans are driving a hard bargain for the rules they want everyone to sign up to, to be included, these rules are basically about national governments running a tight ship and not getting into debt. The reason the Germans are in a strong position to argue this is because they are the largest and most successful economy in the Eurozone and they are the ones who are having to pay most to keep the others afloat. So whilst the others may complain about having the agenda of what rules to sign up to being dictated by the Germans, the reason they are in this situation is because they are having to ask Germany for help all the time.

A lot of people are negative about the idea that the Germans will have influence over running things, but the Germans do know how to get an educated workforce that produces high quality goods and has a high standard of living, I'm not saying Germany is perfect but it is a more successful model than the UK.