Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:51 am  

AXE2GRIND wrote:

I'll just leave this here

Yeah, Farage has always been a Marxist.
He and his friends certainly helped make immigration toxic though.

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:16 am  

Cronus wrote:

How do you test if they are 'fundamentally decent people'? You can't. It's a ridiculous suggestion. So you rely on other measures.

Question: how much is too much? Net migration for the last 10 years has been *roughly* 270k per annum. Last year 612,000 people migrated to the UK and 385,000 people emigrated, a net migration figure of 226,000. How long do you can that continue? I have NEVER heard an advocate of open immigration answer.

The fact is, if we open the doors too much, we will be overwhelmed. Millions want to come here. Many millions. We are creaking at the seams as it is in terms of infrastructure and public services, without even considering our increasing elderly population and the vastly higher birth rates of most immigrants. We are a small island with limited land and resources. How many more towns, roads, etc are we prepared to build?

Immigration is only toxic if you make it so - which is what the left do without fail if anyone questions immigration. For me it's a numbers game: if you don't control the numbers, the numbers get out of hand. You can't play the 'cosy progressive' game forever at this - the numbers don't stack up. At some point the brakes MUST come on and that point isn't too far off. Control it; slow it down.

I sometimes think the left's obsession with the wonders of mass immigration is mainly because the right oppose it. It makes so little sense they're either vastly stupid or so ideologically driven they can't see sense.

I've said it many times and it was repeated on QT tonight: how can you plan for housing and public services (or indeed, anything) if you can't control how many people are about to move in?

So you think non-EU immigrants voted Brexit to reduce EU immigration so non-EU immigration could increase? Just saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so. Prove to me that a significant number voted tactically in this way. Not just hearsay or some statistically irrelevant percentage: show me solid evidence.

It's interesting that we have a different take on this, probably due to our political differences, although I'm not 100% certain.
I do actually agree that there has to be some control on free movement, which has only become a major factor since the inclusion of some of the old Eastern Bolc Nations, whose economies are significantly weaker than those countries that have been members of the EU for30+ years and although the "freedom of movement" has been a fundamental pillar of membership of the EU, the disparity in wealth between the older member nations and some of the more recent additions needed to be handled differently.
Of course, over time, the gap in wealth will reduce and the clamour to come to the UK, Germany, France will stagnate and then reverse.

The attempted clamp down on controlled immigration hasn't worked and we now have more people arriving from outside the EU than from within it so and this on it's own is significantly higher than the governments "new" target for controlled immigration, which would suggest that a long line of home secretaries have either been incompetent or just wishful thinkers.

You are right to point towards creaking public services. However, you are wrong to blame this on EU immigration.
We've had 10+ years of austerity, cutting every public service to the bone and I suggest that THIS is the real reason for your creaking public services but, of course, the narrative of blaming someone else, especially immigrants, is rather more palatable than admitting that austerity cut have largely been to blame for most of the difficulties.

As for some of the ethnic groups voting Brexit to try and help improve the chances of their families coming over from Asia, I dont know if these figures exist. However, as you are aware, I'm pretty keen to absorb as much information as possible on the Brexit issue and I'm happy to put this forward as being correct.

If I'm wrong on this, I will happily hold my hands up and admit it but, I dont believe this will be necessary

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:23 am  

AXE2GRIND wrote: I'll just leave this here That's an interesting one. A genuine picture from the Slovenian border during the crisis of 2015 - shortly after Angela Merkel announced she would open Germany's borders. In the words of Jeff Mitchell, the photographer who took this shot, the Slovenians were utterly unprepared and it was literally a flood; thousands upon thousands arriving on train after train..."it was endless"..."a conveyor belt". He tells us it was mainly Syrians, but many Afghans, Turks and others, almost without exception young men, almost all heading for Germany. No checks, no borders. That's also what Farage tells us. His attack is aimed directly at the EU for failing to manage this crisis; for Merkel inviting this influx. There is nothing about the poster and the issue which is inaccurate or untrue. It was crude, it was crass - the image is of course inflammatory, but it's a genuine image from the actual crisis - but the problem is (to borrow a line) we can't handle the truth. Our politicians, media and left-wing jumped on it in a hostile attack, an opportunity to cry outrage and attack Farage (I'm not particularly a fan, BTW) - and it became even more a toxic issue. Never mind that he showed us the true situation, that doesn't matter, it was too blunt for our delicate sheltered Western minds. I dare say some snowflakes will find my comments above outrageous because "racism though".

AXE2GRIND wrote: I'll just leave this here That's an interesting one. A genuine picture from the Slovenian border during the crisis of 2015 - shortly after Angela Merkel announced she would open Germany's borders. In the words of Jeff Mitchell, the photographer who took this shot, the Slovenians were utterly unprepared and it was literally a flood; thousands upon thousands arriving on train after train..."it was endless"..."a conveyor belt". He tells us it was mainly Syrians, but many Afghans, Turks and others, almost without exception young men, almost all heading for Germany. No checks, no borders. That's also what Farage tells us. His attack is aimed directly at the EU for failing to manage this crisis; for Merkel inviting this influx. There is nothing about the poster and the issue which is inaccurate or untrue. It was crude, it was crass - the image is of course inflammatory, but it's a genuine image from the actual crisis - but the problem is (to borrow a line) we can't handle the truth. Our politicians, media and left-wing jumped on it in a hostile attack, an opportunity to cry outrage and attack Farage (I'm not particularly a fan, BTW) - and it became even more a toxic issue. Never mind that he showed us the true situation, that doesn't matter, it was too blunt for our delicate sheltered Western minds. I dare say some snowflakes will find my comments above outrageous because "racism though".

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:32 am  

King Street Cat wrote: Don't you remember Priti Patel's pre-referendum message to “save our curry houses”? https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 1.html?amp Then 3 years later, the anger at the lie. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-industry Might be my age but I don't remember it. That tells me what a huge part of the campaign it must have been. I do recall reports of an urgent shortage of 'curry' chefs, which was clearly jumped upon. It's a fair point: EU workers can walk in while non-EU often jump through hoops. Neither should be able to walk in; both should be subject to checks and controls. Anyway, that doesn't prove a statistically significant number voted for that reason.

King Street Cat wrote: Don't you remember Priti Patel's pre-referendum message to “save our curry houses”? https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 1.html?amp Then 3 years later, the anger at the lie. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-industry Might be my age but I don't remember it. That tells me what a huge part of the campaign it must have been. I do recall reports of an urgent shortage of 'curry' chefs, which was clearly jumped upon. It's a fair point: EU workers can walk in while non-EU often jump through hoops. Neither should be able to walk in; both should be subject to checks and controls. Anyway, that doesn't prove a statistically significant number voted for that reason.

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:04 pm  

Cronus wrote:

will find my comments above outrageous because "racism though".

Not at all. Despite being a purposely inflammatory poster from knock-off Nige, if you take a closer look, you can't help but notice there is a distinct lack of women and kids. This may be as it was, it may also be creative cropping.

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:11 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

Not at all. Despite being a purposely inflammatory poster from knock-off Nige, if you take a closer look, you can't help but notice there is a distinct lack of women and kids. This may be as it was, it may also be creative cropping.

You can't creatively crop that which is not there. Men, young men, cross borders, get settled and then import their families, left wing propoganda will never change the facts.

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:00 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

You've said this about "abuse" before, it's been challenged before and you didn't explain what you meant. Please can you do so this time? The "waste" doesn't stand up to much scrutiny either - like many nationalised industries it's ridiculously lean.

I certainly would support higher taxes, and I imagine most of the public is as well. Certainly compared to making people go down the insurance route which is a profoundly unpopular with the British public - and would cost significantly more. I can't see any benefit to it apart from an ideological one.

On abuse - there are 15m missed appointments with GP practises if we accept each cost £30 that is £450m is a nurse costs £30k that the equivalent of 15,000 nurses - that would be quite useful now. 8m hospital out patient appointments were also missed - that's another 1bn. Anyone who thinks an organisation the size of the NHS isn't wasteful is delusional - even it were 95% efficient that would be a saving of £6bn and we all know its nowhere near 95%. That is before we discussed clinical negligence claims which currently sits at £1.5bn, the failed IT project to integrate patient records cost a further £10bn - do want further information?

For routine surgery e.g. cataracts, hernias etc surely private insurance would be a better and cheaper option. The workforce has already been asked to pay in extra into a flawed pension scheme how much more do you want to take?

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:15 pm  

Interesting day - yet another Labour flight of fantasy. You know when John McDonald is telling lies - he opens his mouth. When asked if the nationalising program he announced a couple of months ago was it he said say yes - now this, he didn't even have the guts to speak with BT first. Then Justine on R4 this morning asked him it this was finally it he said yes within two minutes he said they would also nationalise the broadband operations of Sky, Talk Talk etc. You cannot believe a word he says.

As for the policy - complete and utter madness and not deliverable - the 20bn is understated by 5 and there is likely 600 businesses that would be go to the wall. Labour wants that to happen being so anti-business. Happy days for the Tories - Labour's credibility takes yet another pounding

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:16 pm  

King Street Cat wrote: Not at all. Despite being a purposely inflammatory poster from knock-off Nige, if you take a closer look, you can't help but notice there is a distinct lack of women and kids. This may be as it was, it may also be creative cropping. Take your pick: Slovenia Hungary Austria Croatia Macedonia I'm not blind to the fact many of these are genuine refugees and yes the EU should help resettle their share of those in dire need. But these was no managed refugee resettlement programme; this was Merkel inviting an influx of over a million into Europe. All genuine refugees? Far from it.

King Street Cat wrote: Not at all. Despite being a purposely inflammatory poster from knock-off Nige, if you take a closer look, you can't help but notice there is a distinct lack of women and kids. This may be as it was, it may also be creative cropping. Take your pick: Slovenia Hungary Austria Croatia Macedonia I'm not blind to the fact many of these are genuine refugees and yes the EU should help resettle their share of those in dire need. But these was no managed refugee resettlement programme; this was Merkel inviting an influx of over a million into Europe. All genuine refugees? Far from it.

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:40 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

For routine surgery e.g. cataracts, hernias etc surely private insurance would be a better and cheaper option.

This is based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever - unless you care to furnish us with examples of how inserting a profit margin and the hefty additional administrative burden of insurance coverage ever produces cheaper outputs. (And while we're here let's not pretend the private sector is a bastion of efficiency).

In any event, the country is totally wed to the NHS form of socialism and very far right views like yours are not in any way popular, or likely to be enacted - even by the Tory party in its current extreme form. They would like it to be funded properly though.