Re: Death on the UK roads : Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:03 pm  

Robbo wrote:

So people would continually be forking out for a driving lesson, then another one, then another one.... where does it end? There's only one winner in that scenario.........

I am quite old and have been driving since I was 21.
Last year, I got done for 38mph in a 30mph limit.
I was given the option of a fine and points or paying the same as the fine to do a one-day course (and no points), so I did the course.

I learned a lot from that course, the videos were a very salutary lesson and I drive differently now.
In 30 limits I used to (ahem) do about 35, now I usually do about 25.
Plus I think there's a valid case for slowing it down even more in some areas.

When you've seen the genuine film of the kid hitting the bonnet, being tossed over the roof of the car, hitting the boot and then the road ... and then laying still in the road ... even though the driver had slowed to 30 just beforehand ... well, basically, little kids don't think, we must think for them.

Re: Death on the UK roads : Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:40 pm  

Robbo wrote:

... but it wont solve the problem, There will still be all the other idiots who cause accidents by selfishly and very knowingly drive dangerously. Regardless of how much training they've had..... attitudes need to be changed aswell as knowledge.

Well, yes, but it's beside the point. Nobody will ever eliminate dickkheads, this is not a reason for not trying. We simply do not throw enough resources at dickkhead elimination, and instead (as others have pointed out) the motor-insurance-premium-payer and the taxpayer between them end up paying a multi-billion pound bill.

carl_spackler wrote:

Agree with your sentiment. I personally would never claim my driving to be any more than relatively decent, and I think the mentality of thinking you're a great driver can often lead to being a poor one, as it can contribute to overconfidence and a too casual attitude.

This is not the way I look at it. I would never claim to be a great driver, because for one thing, having been trained in advanced driving and spending every mile on the road putting what you've learned into practice only highlights to you how hazardous the roads are, and how easy it is to come to grief even if technically you have done nothing wrong. I would however strongly claim to be a better driver than most, simply because as a result of advanced driving training and actively trying to put those techniques into place every journey means that I know I am consciously actively looking for things which I know most other road users are not, and I am actively trying to concentrate not just on the few yards of tarmac ahead of me but the whole of the environment, which again I know most other drivers are not.

This does not make me "a great driver" but it does make me better than any driver who is not doing these things, which is, sadly, the majority. OTOH, any driver who did the same training, and wanted to learn and put into practice exactly the same techniques, could do so. So to me, being a driver as good as I am is not because there is anything special about me, anybody could potentially do it, they (a) just need to want to do it and (b) be properly trained in how to do it.

As an example yesterday evening I was outside a bus lane, and at the end of the bus lane I started to drift over to the left hand lane. From the other direction there was a motorcycle which was on the centre white line, wanting to turn right, into a minor road on my left. As I moved out of the right hand lane I realised that an idiot ( a young lass driving a BMW saloon as it turned out) had decided to put her foot down and pull around me, heading for the right turn lane at the approaching lights. This meant she was straddling the white line, was accelerating, and was going to take the motorcyclist out. So I decided to brake as sharply as I dare without actually standing on the brakes, with no time to check whether the vehicle behind was too close as I felt I had no choice but to give the poor basstard on the bike a chance, he shot forward in front of me and the silly bitch in the Beemer missed his back end by inches as she sailed past.

The person behind me was thankfully paying attention and stopped behind me no problem. I had weighed up the alternatives though and preferred the prospect of a bent back bumper to a mangled motorcyclist.

Miss deBeemer then came to a halt about 30 yards down the road in the right turn queue. I slowly drove forward and wound my window down and had a chat. She was oblivious. She had no idea there had ever been a motorcyclist even in existence and was having none of it at all.

I would suggest that any of the people on this thread that take their driving seriously could have equally detected and thus avoided this accident-waiting-to-happen. It is only a question of paying attention to what is happening around you and driving on the basis that there are thousands of idiots all around you so you need to keep an eye out for them.

She could have done an advanced course and if she had been paying attention to the road ahead, and actively thinking about what she was doing, we would never have had this situation. In her case, as she wasn't an archetypal boy racer dickkhead, it is a prime example of a driver not up to the job, but who could have been easily trained to be up to the job. That would only leave the issue of whether she had the personal commitment to try to keep up to those standards, but there is no reason in principle why she shouldn't, and certainly could if she wanted to. If somebody showed her a video of what she had nearly done I expect she'd be mortified.

Re: Death on the UK roads : Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:58 pm  

This is not a sexist comment but woman are the worst drivers, i say this from personal experience of being on the road for long periods in the past, Yes woman take less risks as a whole and seem to have less accidents but woman's awareness of their whole surroundings is frankly shocking, my wife is also a professional driver and completely agrees with this, she says woman don't cause accidents but you they do create traffic which causes problems that lead to accidents.

Re: Death on the UK roads : Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:23 pm  

carl_spackler wrote:

I would just say on this point that I think speed cameras are only a tiny part of the answer. There are so many problems on the road that cannot be picked up this way, but I agree that the police's hands are largely tied with a lot of it because they simply don't have the manpower. I find it frustrating that driving like an idiot most often goes unpunished so long as people know where the areas to slow down for are, and think that it is these drivers who are more dangerous than those creeping over the speed limit in front of a camera. I don't claim to know what the solution is, though.

In all honesty I don't think there are any solutions that would be easy or cheap to implement.

There is nothing more infuriating than seeing someone cutting in or driving selfishly and dangerously because "they are so much better than everyone else and have no need to wait"

I would personally love it if there was some form of traffic officer at every junction or even cameras getting video evidence of dangerous driving which can then later be used against the perpetrator, People would atleast then know they are being watched and won't get away with it, But the logistics of it mean it could never happen without an absolute fortune being spent on the said officers. Always does my head in when you see a driver slow down and start driving sensibly as soon as a police car is around who 50 yards up the road was driving like an absolute maniac.

The smart boxes that have already been mentioned if made compulsory would give people a financial incentive to drive more safely but again, if someone can afford a car with a powerful engine, then the cost of their insurance isn't going to be enough to slow them down.

If only there was some form of Traffic Cop Super Hero.....

El Barbudo wrote:

I am quite old and have been driving since I was 21.
Last year, I got done for 38mph in a 30mph limit.
I was given the option of a fine and points or paying the same as the fine to do a one-day course (and no points), so I did the course.

I learned a lot from that course, the videos were a very salutary lesson and I drive differently now.
In 30 limits I used to (ahem) do about 35, now I usually do about 25.
Plus I think there's a valid case for slowing it down even more in some areas.

When you've seen the genuine film of the kid hitting the bonnet, being tossed over the roof of the car, hitting the boot and then the road ... and then laying still in the road ... even though the driver had slowed to 30 just beforehand ... well, basically, little kids don't think, we must think for them.

I actually think these courses are good, and are proven to change peoples attitudes to speeding. My step dad went on one, and It also changed his driving habits. It's just a shame that it takes someone having to be caught speeding in the first place, It surely can't be so hard to fit this sort of course in with the current test and highway code examination (which if its anything like when i did mine is a joke btw) that people have to go through already.

Horatio Yed wrote:

This is not a sexist comment but

but what? but it is?.... I actually agree with you but It's an unfair generalisation.


there may be a lot of women who drive without any awareness and it is pretty shocking, but there's plenty of drivers out there who are not women who drive in exactly the same "own world" way. Now you undoubtedly have more experience of the roads than I do but statistically women can't be the worst drivers can they? otherwise they wouldn't have the low premiums that they have? My grandad is due to retake his test now because he is at the age where he needs to retake, and I am actually scared to get a lift in a car with him sometimes because of his slow reactions and "awareness" and understanding of whats going on around him.

Re: Death on the UK roads : Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:12 pm  

Men's problems when driving is arrogance women's is awareness, i saw something which i can't find on my mobile internet relating to how men and women are wired up in the grey matter effecting the way the perceive the world around them when driving. In my eyes both are dangerous, obviously though me as a layman come across as sexist, i admit it does and although not everyone of either sex fall in to either of those problems it sits for vast swathes of drivers. Sometimes biology actually explains things that go against touchy PC language. If no white guy or woman has ever run under 10 seconds is that racist and sexist? It's something to do with spatial awareness.

Re: Death on the UK roads : Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:44 pm  

We've also had Automated Incident Detection (AID) technology for many years now, although they tend only to be used in lane management schemes. The cameras simply work on a passive basis until a vehicle or person crosses a demarcation line, they then record the incident for any future use.

Maybe these could actually work better than speed cameras, if they were placed at known hazards

Re: Death on the UK roads : Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:37 pm  

Robbo wrote:

So people would continually be forking out for a driving lesson, then another one, then another one.... where does it end? There's only one winner in that scenario.........

Where did i say anything about, people paying for extra lessons?
You can take so called advanced training that isn't expensive.

I would say one of the winners if people drove better would be the cost as cod'ead has rightly pointed out.

Re: Death on the UK roads : Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:41 pm  

Sandra The Terrorist wrote:

Do normal driving instructors prepare candidates for this sort of thing and how much is a lesson today?

Yes they do.
Not a 100% certain of the cost. But i would bet its around the £25/£30 per hour mark.
I do my own sort of assessment. Its more a case of seeing what bad habits people have picked up and making sure they are driving nice and safe.
Most of that involves, getting people to leave the right amount of space from the car in front and working on awareness around them.
Something most drivers seem to have forgotten.

Re: Death on the UK roads : Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:51 pm  

Robbo wrote: snip http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ivers.html

Robbo wrote: snip http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ivers.html

Re: Death on the UK roads : Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:30 pm  

Horatio Yed wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1574402/Women-and-gay-men-are-worst-drivers.html

Dally will probably link to the Wail's take on it tomorrow: "SHIRTLIFTERS KILL MORE THAN HETEROSEXUALS"