Re: The right to die : Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:37 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

That's interesting. When God appeared on the scene, there was definitely no existing God in residence. Must be right, cos he says so.

So, how did God get formed then? There was no pre-existing God to form him, and obviously, he couldn't form himself before he existed.

Secondly, if God created everything, how come there was a "before God", and who created that?

Have you ever read Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel 'Small Gods'.

Explains it perfectly.

Re: The right to die : Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:12 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

That's interesting. When God appeared on the scene, there was definitely no existing God in residence. Must be right, cos he says so.

So, how did God get formed then? There was no pre-existing God to form him, and obviously, he couldn't form himself before he existed.

Secondly, if God created everything, how come there was a "before God", and who created that?

errhh yes, interesting question FA !

how was God created ? and when the world ends, will God 'end' ?

that's one to ask KS or the next Witness who comes knocking at your door...

Re: The right to die : Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:20 am  

I've asked him who created the creator before, he's got nothing, none of them have.

Pointless and futile, while science marches on these idiots want to drag us back to the dark ages where tyranny, hate and fear ruled.

Re: The right to die : Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:20 am  

Sheldon wrote:

I've asked him who created the creator before, he's got nothing, none of them have.

Pointless and futile, while science marches on these idiots want to drag us back to the dark ages where tyranny, hate and fear ruled.

I don't know who created God, if he even had a creator that is.

Re: The right to die : Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:29 am  

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JerryChicken wrote: of course Thursday night is always Big Wok night in Brum... Try Myako Teppanyaki mate, it's like cooking and eating in a circus

Re: The right to die : Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:37 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Can you explain to me how biting into an apple equals "wanting to be god"? You fail to consider my question, which is what was so bad about eating an apple? It may have been against the rules, but WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT IT?

It wasn't just any apple - it was fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Fall of Man is actually very much like Tony Nicklinson's case (apologies for bringing the thread back ON topic). Tony Nicklinson wants to play God as much as Adam and Eve did.

You don't address the question at all of why all descendants should be condemned to death and to suffer diseases etc for something that was not their doing.

Because any of us in Adam's place would have done the same thing.

Who created Satan? You also overlook that god knew that if Satan was allowed to tempt his creations, they would succumb, yet you weirdly still blame them.

God did not create Satan.

Satan was originally a holy angel called Lucifer. Lucifer became arrogant and jealous and he decided that he wanted to be better than God. He was subsequently cast out of Heaven and he came to live in our world.

In any meaningful sense. A reasonable analogy would be giving a kid in a garage full of petrol some matches and some lighters to play with, and telling it not to touch them, then blaming the kid for the explosion.

I don’t agree with that analogy, but in any case the kid is to blame.

WTF is "the fall of mankind"?

The consequence of Adam’s sin.

But at least you admit that in the fairy story, it was all planned by god. This makes it weird that you do not blame god when his plans come to fruition, but I understand that logic isn't your strong suit.

God is sovereign. Who are you, a mere human being, to question his plan?.

If it was, why do you not think that god's infinitely disproportionate over-reaction to it is as utterly absurd as it sounds to us non-believers?

How can you say it is an overreaction? You underestimate the severity of sin.

According to your tall tale, he wrote the script, he designed the model, he knew exactly what it would do, so he is 100% responsible. I'm surprised even you can't see that one.

He gave us free will.

He created the set, the actors, the script – but he lets us decide what actually happens on stage.

That only counts for brainwashed believers. As god does not exist, there is no such thing to me as "his word". People who do not believe the fairy stories by definition aren't going to accept the fairy story as being evidence of itself, but the question would be why do believers so uncritically swallow every single thing however ludicrous, just because it is in some collection of old texts? Especially given some of the ramblings (Mintball is the expert on them) contained in the same works which even you would surely dismiss as lunatic?

I wouldn’t say that any of the Bible is lunacy. Perhaps Mintball would care to oblige?

This is unacceptable. A new born baby cannot be a "sinner". What sin can it commit?

Inherited sin.

Why just some babies, why not all of them?

All babies are sinful.

Please try to use logic and reason if you try to answer. Throwing in more random quotes from your particular book is as useless as it is self-fulfilling. This stuff just the proposition; it is not, and never can be, evidence of its own "truth", for the reason I have set out.

I have yet to see any logic or reason from you, only tantrums at how unfair you think God is.

Re: The right to die : Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:56 am  

Yep clearly not brain washed.

Re: The right to die : Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:01 am  

kirkstaller wrote:

... He created the set, the actors, the script – but he lets us decide what actually happens on stage...

Since your god (according to your acript) not only knows everything that has happened but everything that will happen, this is errant nonsense.

kirkstaller wrote:

I wouldn’t say that any of the Bible is lunacy. Perhaps Mintball would care to oblige?

The Bible is, in itself, no more or no less nonsense than the tales of the Greek/Roman gods or the Norse gods or any other gods or any other creation myths, such as Gilgamesh.

It is a collection of stories and poetry and proverbs and genealogy selected from an even greater amount of those things, and all bundled together, at a later date, into one book.

It is a work of literature and some of that literature is astounding. Some of the Psalms, for instance, are quite beautiful, while some of the stories would appall even the fans of slasher movies.

Anthropologically, it is interesting as a work illustrating how one tribe explained the world and organised itself in terms of laws, and how it saw its own history in its own tiny part of the world.

The "lunacy" is that some apparently educated people, in the 21st century, take it at face value, abandon any critical skills, any logic, and not only believe the worst of these stories, but defend them.

While one should always be wary of reductio ad Hitlerum, these people, who believe in the absolute, literal truth of the Bible, and then defend it, are defending behaviour hardly unakin to that of despots and dictators.

The "lunacy" is entirely theirs.

Re: The right to die : Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:20 am  

kirkstaller wrote:

It wasn't just any apple - it was fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Fall of Man is actually very much like Tony Nicklinson's case (apologies for bringing the thread back ON topic). Tony Nicklinson wants to play God as much as Adam and Eve did.

Because any of us in Adam's place would have done the same thing.

God did not create Satan.

Satan was originally a holy angel called Lucifer. Lucifer became arrogant and jealous and he decided that he wanted to be better than God. He was subsequently cast out of Heaven and he came to live in our world.

I don’t agree with that analogy, but in any case the kid is to blame.

The consequence of Adam’s sin.

God is sovereign. Who are you, a mere human being, to question his plan?.

How can you say it is an overreaction? You underestimate the severity of sin.

He gave us free will.

He created the set, the actors, the script – but he lets us decide what actually happens on stage.

I wouldn’t say that any of the Bible is lunacy. Perhaps Mintball would care to oblige?

Inherited sin.

All babies are sinful.

I have yet to see any logic or reason from you, only tantrums at how unfair you think God is.

you are on a wind up mate.surely you dont believe that c**p you ve posted above!!!! you cant believe in all that, surely not. if you do believe that , you need to report your parents or whoever mentally abused and brainwashed you as a kid, to the authorities and then you need to go into therapy to become normal and realise what you were told to believe is in fact SH*T.

Re: The right to die : Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:03 am  

Mintball wrote:

Since your god (according to your acript) not only knows everything that has happened but everything that will happen, this is errant nonsense.

No, not really.

Whilst God may know everything, including what will happen in the future, our choices remain our own. God just happens to know what we will choose. Knowledge of something =/= influence, and to pretend otherwise is to pervert the Biblical definition of predestination.

The Bible is, in itself, no more or no less nonsense than the tales of the Greek/Roman gods or the Norse gods or any other gods or any other creation myths, such as Gilgamesh.

What evidence do you have for that, exactly?

It is a collection of stories and poetry and proverbs and genealogy

Correct.

selected from an even greater amount of those things

Oh dear.

and all bundled together, at a later date, into one book.

Correct.

It is a work of literature and some of that literature is astounding. Some of the Psalms, for instance, are quite beautiful, while some of the stories would appall even the fans of slasher movies.

I agree with you 100%.

Anthropologically, it is interesting as a work illustrating how one tribe explained the world and organised itself in terms of laws, and how it saw its own history in its own tiny part of the world.

Again I agree, though that doesn’t lessen the historical accuracy of that particular worldview.

The "lunacy" is that some apparently educated people, in the 21st century, take it at face value, abandon any critical skills, any logic, and not only believe the worst of these stories, but defend them.

I have examined the Bible critically and have come to a different conclusion to you.

While one should always be wary of reductio ad Hitlerum, these people, who believe in the absolute, literal truth of the Bible, and then defend it, are defending behaviour hardly unakin to that of despots and dictators.

The "lunacy" is entirely theirs.

God is sovereign over mankind.

You have posted in the past about your own false conversion and eventual backslide back into rebellion. I do not take lectures on morality from those who have abandoned the morality laid down by God.

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I'm anxious that this thread gets back on topic - if you have a genuine theological question, PM me.

Let's get back to talking about the issue of euthanasia and the right to die.