Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:12 am  

Cronus wrote:

Who knows? Perhaps a Tory PM would have refused to go to war altogether? We'll never know. It's hypothetical and pointless. What we do know is one Anthony Charles Lynton Blair and the Labour Party happily took us into the war. One of several reasons I'll never vote Labour again.

As hypothetical & pointless as it is, if you're trying to tell me the Tories wouldn't have done the same thing, you really are deluding yourself.

Cronus wrote:

So I was correct, you haven't listened to it. Yet you comment on it.

Anyone who bases their views purely on pundits really doesn't deserve the time of day.

Just because I'm selective on who I'm prepared to listen to, I don't deserve the time of day!

I don't base my views purely on pundits, I just choose not to listen to the Tory puppet.

So was I incorrect when I stated both sides of the Tory divide seem fairly happy with May's stance, which seems a tad strange don't you think, or am I too contemptible to deserve a response?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:01 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

As hypothetical & pointless as it is, if you're trying to tell me the Tories wouldn't have done the same thing, you really are deluding yourself.

Just because I'm selective on who I'm prepared to listen to, I don't deserve the time of day!

I don't base my views purely on pundits, I just choose not to listen to the Tory puppet.

So was I incorrect when I stated both sides of the Tory divide seem fairly happy with May's stance, which seems a tad strange don't you think, or am I too contemptible to deserve a response?

Indeed.
The Yanks took us to war and unfortunately, if the same scenario were to come around in future, we would follow them again, it's the price to pay for being their puppet and outside the EU, we will need them as an ally more than ever.
Blair was doing precisely what Bush wanted, nothing more, nothing less and yes, the Tories would have done the same.
What would happen with Corbyn in charge, who knows but, even he may fall into line, unless we find a new super power as our "best mate".

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:05 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Blair was doing precisely what Bush wanted

And God, apparently.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:13 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

The Yanks took us to war and unfortunately, if the same scenario were to come around in future, we would follow them again, it's the price to pay for being their puppet and outside the EU, we will need them as an ally more than ever.

So, in or out of the EU, we follow the Yanks into war.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:35 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

As hypothetical & pointless as it is, if you're trying to tell me the Tories wouldn't have done the same thing, you really are deluding yourself.

Hypothetical whataboutery will never change the fact Blair and Labour took us into that war. Blame diversion simply does not work in this case.

Just because I'm selective on who I'm prepared to listen to, I don't deserve the time of day!
I don't base my views purely on pundits, I just choose not to listen to the Tory puppet.

Selective = agenda bias and blinkered input. If you publicly pass judgement on someone but gleefully admit you can't haven't even listened to them, your views can be happily dismissed. I listen to Comrade Cob and others I disagree with simply to understand all sides.

Except Diane Abbott.

So was I incorrect when I stated both sides of the Tory divide seem fairly happy with May's stance, which seems a tad strange don't you think, or am I too contemptible to deserve a response?

Actually, I have no idea what Soubry or JRM said on the speech, given those are the names you mentioned. I suspect Soubry whinged and trotted out her usual soundbites and JRM probably complained that we need a harder line. And they're still more united than Labour.

Nevertheless, it's the same wide spectrum of views we've been hearing from politicians and the press across the board since the referendum - most of which are largely irrelevant unless they're part of the team negotiating with the EU.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:56 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Using your bench mark on democracy and accepting democratic decisions in Parliament, why is it that anyone feels the need to bring up the Iraq war, something voted on by our esteemed MP's.

Surely, on an open forum, we SHOULD be discussing what may be right, or wrong, with the events of the day.
Ultimately, it would be one hell of a risk for Parliament not to uphold the will of the people.

However, as negotiations move along, it's certainly worth Parliament having to ratify a deal prior to it's implementation and if the result is so far removed from the idea that was "sold", it may also be right to go to the electorate, either in a General Election of a second referendum.

With how things are beginning to play out and with May hinting at continued payments to the EU and concessions towards the European Parliament, it could well be the "vote leave" side that aren't happy with the deal.

Oh, the irony.

On a forum like this yes why not

As for the Iraq war I am unsure as why this has raised its ugly head - shameful events that is best viewed as the monumental error it was.

What I find hard to understand is that given 80% of all MPs don't seem to want nor did want Brexit how it was they failed to convince the electorate that Brexit was such a bad idea? The remain side planted plenty of doomsday scenarios that will never come to pass. Perhaps the remainers over egged the downside more than the leavers pushed the upsides to such an extent that normal voters simply didn't believe them.

The EU have shown their true colours in the negotiations is this really a bunch of individuals that you want to control your future?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:11 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The EU have shown their true colours in the negotiations is this really a bunch of individuals that you want to control your future?

Not too sure what you mean by this ?
If you mean that they are negotiating hard and making it difficult for the UK to leave, surely this is exactly what they should be doing to protect/help the EU27.
They would be failing in their duties IF they made it easy for the UK to leave, after all, it was not their decision.

"Divorce" has been used quite frequently to describe us leaving and on the basis that "they" haven't done anything wrong, they should be taking "us" for all we have.
Remember, we are the ones walking out so," they get to keep the house" and they would be more than happy for us to stay.

It would be pure lunacy on their part to make it easy.
Perhaps they are better at negotiating that we are, they certainly seem to have the deck stacked in their favour. Mind you, apart from the blind optimists, anyone could see this is how it would be.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:28 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Not too sure what you mean by this ?
If you mean that they are negotiating hard and making it difficult for the UK to leave, surely this is exactly what they should be doing to protect/help the EU27.
They would be failing in their duties IF they made it easy for the UK to leave, after all, it was not their decision.

"Divorce" has been used quite frequently to describe us leaving and on the basis that "they" haven't done anything wrong, they should be taking "us" for all we have.
Remember, we are the ones walking out so," they get to keep the house" and they would be more than happy for us to stay.

It would be pure lunacy on their part to make it easy.
Perhaps they are better at negotiating that we are, they certainly seem to have the deck stacked in their favour. Mind you, apart from the blind optimists, anyone could see this is how it would be.

No body is saying it should be easy - but what you don't want to do is burn your bridges i.e. a deal is only a good deal if it works for both parties. What you can't do is say we want all the money and you give all the concessions, well you can but its not credible.

I disagree they hold all the aces - we hold the key one - we could just walk away and they have nothing especially no cash which is the want they really want.

Our issue is we are divided so easy to negotiate against - we have weak leadership - send in some senior commercial people guarantee the deal will look a lot different.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:27 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote: I disagree they hold all the aces - we hold the key one - we could just walk away and they have nothing especially no cash which is the want they really want. Not too sure we'd get away with that one https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... vorce-bill

Sal Paradise wrote: I disagree they hold all the aces - we hold the key one - we could just walk away and they have nothing especially no cash which is the want they really want. Not too sure we'd get away with that one https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... vorce-bill

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:18 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The EU have shown their true colours in the negotiations is this really a bunch of individuals that you want to control your future?

They don't control our future; and I would rather be in the club shaping the rules, than have misanthropic little Englanders like Johnson, Gove and Rees-Mogg given even more control over my future.