Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:09 am  

Cronus wrote:

just like his hilariously poorly conceived speech on Monday...and his 1980s Czech 'contacts'...amongst many others...

You mean the hilariously conceived speech that was enthusiastically welcomed by the CBI and put Mrs May so firmly on the backfoot that she ended up telling Parliament that no British PM could sign up to an arrangement, that she'd already signed up to in December...?

As for the last bit - good luck with that piece of propaganda; the MSM's foolish decision to run with it, apart from costing Ben Bradley his dignity and a fair few grand, has resulted in a bump in Mr Corbyn's approval rating.

Brextremism is looking increasingly like a busted flush - hence the uncharacteristically rattled demeanour of JRM on telly last night, and the rash of mental cases labelling John Major (of all people) a 'traitor.'

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:41 am  

bren2k wrote:

You mean the hilariously conceived speech that was enthusiastically welcomed by the CBI and put Mrs May so firmly on the backfoot that she ended up telling Parliament that no British PM could sign up to an arrangement, that she'd already signed up to in December...?

It was roundly derided as a cheap vote-seeker rather than a serious speech - a load of popular promises he simply cannot deliver even if he wanted to. I heard plenty of Labour voters, as well as plenty of journalists, condemning him.

And yes, of course the CBI like that sort of talk, the EU Customs Union helps their margins. Unfortunately for them the price of the EU CU is too high, and that's what helped tip the referendum.

As for the last bit - good luck with that piece of propaganda; the MSM's foolish decision to run with it, apart from costing Ben Bradley his dignity and a fair few grand, has resulted in a bump in Mr Corbyn's approval rating.

Are you saying he didn't meet with Mr Sarkocy? At a time when Soviet Bloc diplomats to the West were pretty much guaranteed to be spying for their respective secret services? Or are you saying Comrade Cob was just naive? Nah, sorry, he's guilty as charged. But don't let those blinkers slip, will you.

Could you imagine if it was a Tory MP? Your lot would be like flies round sh*t until they resigned. Hypocritical much?

Brextremism is looking increasingly like a busted flush - hence the uncharacteristically rattled demeanour of JRM on telly last night, and the rash of mental cases labelling John Major (of all people) a 'traitor.'

John Major - the man who refused a free vote on the Maastricht Treaty - now calling for a second vote on the EU Referendum? Oh the irony. Just another Remoaner calling for of 'let's keep voting until we get the result I want'.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:25 pm  

Cronus wrote:

It was roundly derided as a cheap vote-seeker rather than a serious speech - a load of popular promises he simply cannot deliver even if he wanted to. I heard plenty of Labour voters, as well as plenty of journalists, condemning him.

And yes, of course the CBI like that sort of talk, the EU Customs Union helps their margins. Unfortunately for them the price of the EU CU is too high, and that's what helped tip the referendum.

Are you saying he didn't meet with Mr Sarkocy? At a time when Soviet Bloc diplomats to the West were pretty much guaranteed to be spying for their respective secret services? Or are you saying Comrade Cob was just naive? Nah, sorry, he's guilty as charged. But don't let those blinkers slip, will you.

Could you imagine if it was a Tory MP? Your lot would be like flies round sh*t until they resigned. Hypocritical much?

John Major - the man who refused a free vote on the Maastricht Treaty - now calling for a second vote on the EU Referendum? Oh the irony. Just another Remoaner calling for of 'let's keep voting until we get the result I want'.

Call Major a "remonaer" if you wish but the whole thing is an absolute mess, not least the border between N. Ireland and Eire and issue that was largely ignored (by both sides) during the referendum.
THe 40 years since we joined "the common market" have entwined the UK and EU is so many ways and the "vote leave" campaign were so busy banging on about "taking control" that they didn't bother about any of the detail.

The irony is that, if we are to continue to trade with The EU27 we will still need to comply to much of it's legislation and unless there really are some new opportunities to sell to countries where we have been previously "prevented" from dealing with, there will be a huge hole in our export markets.

The fundamental issue remains that, the UK will be worse off financially, on the outside, than we are as part of the Union.

Boris tried to put a brave face on things a few days ago but, trade will always be simpler with your closest geographical supplier than trading further afield but, WE haven't grasped that on and we think that Trump and the USA will save us.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:17 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Call Major a "remonaer" if you wish but the whole thing is an absolute mess, not least the border between N. Ireland and Eire and issue that was largely ignored (by both sides) during the referendum.

Of course it's not a 'clean' process - this has never happened before and both sides have had to make it up as they go along. Nevertheless, it's going pretty much as any intelligent person could have predicted. Both sides have set out their stalls, nibbled at one another, made demands and outlandish statements and are trying to get the best for their side - but meanwhile talks are ongoing and an agreement will be reached.

Yes, the Irish border is a problem - but to be frank it's the EU's problem. We're happy to solve it and agree a free trade deal but they're rather precious about who's allowed in the club, so yes I suspect a border is inevitable.

The irony is that, if we are to continue to trade with The EU27 we will still need to comply to much of it's legislation and unless there really are some new opportunities to sell to countries where we have been previously "prevented" from dealing with, there will be a huge hole in our export markets.

Well yes, of course to trade with the EU we will need to comply with their regulations - just as they will need to comply with ours. Fortunately, they're pretty much identical and there's no reason to drastically change that.

What we won't be slaves to in the future, is the ridiculous EU 'pillars', and we won't be under the kosh of an unelected and entrenched Germanic elite.

The fundamental issue remains that, the UK will be worse off financially, on the outside, than we are as part of the Union.

Boris tried to put a brave face on things a few days ago but, trade will always be simpler with your closest geographical supplier than trading further afield but, WE haven't grasped that on and we think that Trump and the USA will save us.

I've said since day one we will be worse off to some degree in the short term as the economy and businesses adapt, but that within a matter of years - certainly a decade at most - we'll be better off for it. That short-term hit is well worth it. Extricating ourselves from this mess will take time.

But what an odd comment. No-one thinks the USA will save us (except Remainer straw men). The fact is the share of our trade with the EU has been shrinking for a long time and the EU's share of the world economy has been similarly shrinking as developing economies have boomed and the EU/Euro has floundered. That trend will continue and only an idiot is blind to the opportunities escaping the EU Customs Union(barrier) afford us.

Even so, once we leave we'll be the EU's single largest trading partner which carries considerable weight. They need us, we need them. And believe it or not, most of them want a good bilateral deal as much as we do.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:16 am  

Cronus wrote:

Of course it's not a 'clean' process - this has never happened before and both sides have had to make it up as they go along. Nevertheless, it's going pretty much as any intelligent person could have predicted. Both sides have set out their stalls, nibbled at one another, made demands and outlandish statements and are trying to get the best for their side - but meanwhile talks are ongoing and an agreement will be reached.

Yes, the Irish border is a problem - but to be frank it's the EU's problem. We're happy to solve it and agree a free trade deal but they're rather precious about who's allowed in the club, so yes I suspect a border is inevitable.

Well yes, of course to trade with the EU we will need to comply with their regulations - just as they will need to comply with ours. Fortunately, they're pretty much identical and there's no reason to drastically change that.

What we won't be slaves to in the future, is the ridiculous EU 'pillars', and we won't be under the kosh of an unelected and entrenched Germanic elite.

I've said since day one we will be worse off to some degree in the short term as the economy and businesses adapt, but that within a matter of years - certainly a decade at most - we'll be better off for it. That short-term hit is well worth it. Extricating ourselves from this mess will take time.

But what an odd comment. No-one thinks the USA will save us (except Remainer straw men). The fact is the share of our trade with the EU has been shrinking for a long time and the EU's share of the world economy has been similarly shrinking as developing economies have boomed and the EU/Euro has floundered. That trend will continue and only an idiot is blind to the opportunities escaping the EU Customs Union(barrier) afford us.

Even so, once we leave we'll be the EU's single largest trading partner which carries considerable weight. They need us, we need them. And believe it or not, most of them want a good bilateral deal as much as we do.

I'm in broad agreement with your post, although Boris was trying to convince the wider public that our trade with the EU has been reducing for years and that our trade with the USA was up 40% ??

However, the EU will not allow the UK to have a free trade deal with them AND to be able to negotiate "more favourable" trade deals with other partners around the world, putting the UK at an a trading advantage over the rest of The EU. This would be suicidal for them and they would rather have "no deal".

To "allow" the UK to have equal trading terms with the EU27, whilst also agreeing "better" deals with other nations would cause a rapid demise of the EU, with the exception of some of the poorer nations, who currently benefit substantially from being part of the EU.

You say that Ireland is the EU's problem but I think the UK is in far more jeopardy on this issue and as it is the UK who want out, "we" will be charged with finding a solution that allows some form of "soft" border.

There was always a fair amount of "smuggling" between the North and South, particularly around some of the border towns and as this will be a "gateway" to the EU (and The UK), it really will be an interesting conundrum and this is without factoring in the extremely divisive politics of that part of the Union.
A united Ireland would be one solution but, that isnt likely to happen.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:31 am  

Cronus wrote:

I've said since day one we will be worse off to some degree in the short term as the economy and businesses adapt, but that within a matter of years - certainly a decade at most - we'll be better off for it. That short-term hit is well worth it. Extricating ourselves from this mess will take time.

I find this new Brexiteer position interesting; during the campaign, we were promised £350 million quid a week and a land of milk and honey post Brexit - and from the day the referendum result was decided (much to the surprise of many leavers, inc Farage) there has been a significant dialling back; to the point that we're now told that yes, it will be bad, but we'll eventually recover - with David Davis 'reassuring' us that at least we won't be plunged into a Mad Max style dystopia; the bar is set alarmingly low, and the team responsible for negotiating our exit are roundly derided as incompetent.

There are now many sensible politicians on both sides, accepting that the public mood is shifting; no Brexit at all would be the best outcome, but if we must proceed with this act of economic self harm, then it needs to be a soft as possible, and we need to remain in some form of customs union; hopefully that will pave the way for a return in future years, when lots of people who voted for it without understanding the ramifications, will be less interested in the jingoistic dogma of 'taking back control' and 'independence' and more aware of the impact on their own finances.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:45 pm  

You would have a heart of stone not to laugh at the intervention of Blair and major lecturing us on democracy.
I seem to remember over a million people marching in London against the Iraq war. Didn’t stop Blair embarking on a war that has destroyed the Middle East. Major cost the country a fortune in the erm venture, not forgetting the Maastricht treaty, we never got a chance to vote on that.
Meanwhile jezza is as usual promising lots of free stuff for everybody. His trip with starmer and thornberry to see Barnier in Brussels was a first class act in undermining mays negotiations. Good old jezza is only interested in overthrowing the government. He does not give a hoot about the brexit terms and conditions.
Looking at the motley crew in the conservative cabinet is surpassed by the rabble in the labour shadow cabinet. God forbid they should achieve power. The thought of Diane Abbott and thornberry running the country with good old jezza is enough to send any sane person running to the hills.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:03 pm  

I think much is being made out of the border between North and South Ireland. The amount of trade that crosses the border is tiny in comparison to the Canada to the US and they manage to conduct this in seamless fashion even using drones to indentify vehicles. Virtually all cross border cargo is now processed electronically so the border in Ireland is a red herring.

I have said it all along we will never progress this whilst ever those who lost the vote are doing the bidding for the Europeans e.g. Major, Blair, Brown, Amuna etc. the Europeans will always be able to use a divide and conquer mentality.

Often in life you have to go backwards a little to move forwards and yes we may well be worse off in the beginning but longer term it should benefit us. Surely this is a small price to pay for not having to cow down to the French, the Germans and the European court. Who we let into this country should be determined by us not by a third party - what is really sad is that we see EU migrant labour as essential when we have c2m unemployed a large chunk of which could actually be gamefully employed.

The monies are important and this is the lever to pull - no deal no monies. Anyone who thinks we will suddenly regress back to an economy similar to Greece or Italy because we are not a member of the EU is hardly being realistic. Who is to say that the economic cycle hits Europe and our reliance on that market forces our economy backwards without any real alternative to improve matters

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:27 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The monies are important and this is the lever to pull - no deal no monies. Anyone who thinks we will suddenly regress back to an economy similar to Greece or Italy because we are not a member of the EU is hardly being realistic. Who is to say that the economic cycle hits Europe and our reliance on that market forces our economy backwards without any real alternative to improve matters

I dont think anyone has suggested falling back to the levels of Greece or Italy, 2 countries not exactly famous for running their economies well (either pre The EU or as members within it and IF we were to come anywhere close to those 2 nations.
We have followed Europe in and out of recession in the past and even on the outside, we wouldn't be immune from growth or recessionary trends over there, just as we are with the USA, after all, we're all part of the global economy.
As Bren2k alluded to in his post, "we" were "sold" on taking back control and a brave new world of prosperity, not on the basis that we'd all be a little worse of but, that it would be worth it in the longer term ??

Maybe, you too have decided that there will indeed be a short term "hit", it may still be a cliff edge.

Cant wait for Mrs May's words of wisdom, I'm sure that everyone will feel much better after her latest blast of hot air

There has been an utter lack of leadership since the referendum and with Brexit not being aligned to party politics, as a country we are, at least in the short term, incapable of getting the best deal for the UK.

A few months ago, I suggested that we should have put Farage in charge of negotiations and although I detest him, both politically and personally, he wouldn't have needed to sway with the wind to appease his party "allies", something which is most definitely holding "us" back.

The slim "majority" in parliament that May has, is certainly making the task far more difficult.
If only we had a strong or stable government.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:57 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I dont think anyone has suggested falling back to the levels of Greece or Italy, 2 countries not exactly famous for running their economies well (either pre The EU or as members within it and IF we were to come anywhere close to those 2 nations.
We have followed Europe in and out of recession in the past and even on the outside, we wouldn't be immune from growth or recessionary trends over there, just as we are with the USA, after all, we're all part of the global economy.
As Bren2k alluded to in his post, "we" were "sold" on taking back control and a brave new world of prosperity, not on the basis that we'd all be a little worse of but, that it would be worth it in the longer term ??

Maybe, you too have decided that there will indeed be a short term "hit", it may still be a cliff edge.

Cant wait for Mrs May's words of wisdom, I'm sure that everyone will feel much better after her latest blast of hot air

There has been an utter lack of leadership since the referendum and with Brexit not being aligned to party politics, as a country we are, at least in the short term, incapable of getting the best deal for the UK.

A few months ago, I suggested that we should have put Farage in charge of negotiations and although I detest him, both politically and personally, he wouldn't have needed to sway with the wind to appease his party "allies", something which is most definitely holding "us" back.

The slim "majority" in parliament that May has, is certainly making the task far more difficult.
If only we had a strong or stable government.

I agree on the lack of leadership but this is such a device issue no PM leading the country could have coordinated all the views especially with so many prominent remainers. Blair is more interested in the "Happy Monday" agreement than he is about anything else i.e. massaging his own ego. He still gets much air time and rather than support the vote he and other like him have tried to undermine the vote.

I do think there will be a step backwards - but nothing as bad as the remain campaign suggested. So you cannot say the country wasn't warned.

I think we should have put some business people in charge they are used to doing deals and this would have been resolved month ago - one thing is certain Barnier would have known exactly where he stood.

If there was another vote now I think the vote to leave would be even higher - the Europeans have done themselves no favours in this process.

As for Major - he always was a joke - 3 line whip on Maastricht and now he wants a free vote - embarrassment.