Re: What now for the UK? : Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:47 pm  

Dally wrote:

Will Cameron go crawling back to join the party or will we leave the EU for good?

In either case we are entering interesting and possibly turbulent times.

Has Cameron shown his inexperience and cocked-up Britain's future completely?

Has he called it right and done the opposite?

Does he have a Plan B like jooning the US / Canada economic bloc?

Has he played a blinder in terms of short-term UK politics? Could he lose Lib-Dem support, call a snap election and get a big Tory majority on the back of his actiion / inaction?

If he calls an election he's gone and I hope that it happens. He should resign anyway.

Re: What now for the UK? : Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:48 pm  

There was no risk to UK sovereignty since the proposals for greater control from Brussels over budgets were to Eurozone countries only. The transaction tax was a seperate issue too.
The only issue, apparently, was certain restrictions that would be placed on financial industries as the view was that lax regulation was at least partly to blame for the financial crash.
Now Cameron might well be right to oppose those restrictions due to the large size of the UK financial sector, however I don't think it was necessary to veto the entire treaty. If a bit of effort had been put into negotiating with other European countries instead of slagging them off like a patronising parent for the last 18 months then I'm fairly sure that some kind of equitable agreement could have been reached.

But since Cameron cant bring himself to talk to the Europeans as equals then this situation was inevitable.

Re: What now for the UK? : Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:52 pm  

Him wrote:

There was no risk to UK sovereignty since the proposals for greater control from Brussels over budgets were to Eurozone countries only. The transaction tax was a seperate issue too.
The only issue, apparently, was certain restrictions that would be placed on financial industries as the view was that lax regulation was at least partly to blame for the financial crash.
Now Cameron might well be right to oppose those restrictions due to the large size of the UK financial sector, however I don't think it was necessary to veto the entire treaty. If a bit of effort had been put into negotiating with other European countries instead of slagging them off like a patronising parent for the last 18 months then I'm fairly sure that some kind of equitable agreement could have been reached.

But since Cameron cant bring himself to talk to the Europeans as equals then this situation was inevitable.

But that is the thing he didn't veto it (I am wrong on that point) as it is happening anyway.
All he did was say 'That isn't for us old chap'.

Re: What now for the UK? : Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:54 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

It's assymetric. We'd have tariffs placed on a greater proportion of our exports than the Eurozone would (because it is a bigger market than we are alone). That's the advantage of being 'in' - strength in size, at the cost of some flexibility/sovereignity.

Just on cars, Germany's biggest export market is the UK. If I recall they will also earn bigger profits here on account of car margins for manufacturers here being higher in rip off Britain.

We have the power to totally destabilise Germany and thereby the whole EZ if they want to get silly with us. The Euro will not survive anyway, IMO. Indeed, I believe the drag on Germany will be so great over time that they will withdraw when the time is right for them.

Re: What now for the UK? : Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:55 pm  

Dead Man Walking wrote:

If he calls an election he's gone and I hope that it happens. He should resign anyway.

Very true.
The fact that it has now become clear that we are stuck in this rut for this full term of his office pretty much confirms a Labour win in 2014.

TBH everytime they say 'We are just clearing up the mess' the amount who will vote for the just reduces, as most are sick of that excuse now.

Re: What now for the UK? : Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:57 pm  

Dally wrote:

Just on cars, Germany's biggest export market is the UK. If I recall they will also earn bigger profits here on account of car margins for manufacturers here being higher in rip off Britain.

We have the power to totally destabilise Germany and thereby the whole EZ if they want to get silly with us. The Euro will not survive anyway, IMO. Indeed, I believe the drag on Germany will be so great over time that they will withdraw when the time is right for them.

I agree with you, can't see the Euro surviving as it is. They should have just started with Germany, Finland, Austria, the Netherlands, and France: stable economies with fairly aligned needs. Then the rest could have joined as and when ready.

Re: What now for the UK? : Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:58 pm  

Anakin Skywalker wrote:

But that is the thing he didn't veto it (I am wrong on that point) as it is happening anyway.
All he did was say 'That isn't for us old chap'.

All they needed to do was give up the opt-outs the UK needed, as it is that's all that has really happened anyway.

Re: What now for the UK? : Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:03 pm  

Kelvin's Ferret wrote:

All they needed to do was give up the opt-outs the UK needed, as it is that's all that has really happened anyway.

Indeed
If 'Dave' hadn't spent ages laying into the Euro zone so much so that eventually the French leader (Can't spell is name) told him to shut it he may have got the consessions he wanted but as such there was no way he was ever gunna give Cameron what he wanted after his recent comments.
I still think not agreeing was the correct decision mind.

Re: What now for the UK? : Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:19 pm  

Anakin Skywalker wrote:

Indeed
If 'Dave' hadn't spent ages laying into the Euro zone so much so that eventually the French leader (Can't spell is name) told him to shut it he may have got the consessions he wanted but as such there was no way he was ever gunna give Cameron what he wanted after his recent comments.
I still think not agreeing was the correct decision mind.

Doubt it to be honest. It'd have been the same result regardless. After all, Sarkozy has been preening over the fact that there will be no referenda as a result. Or so he thinks...

Re: What now for the UK? : Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:21 pm  

Urmston Wire wrote:

Doubt it to be honest. It'd have been the same result regardless. After all, Sarkozy has been preening over the fact that there will be no referenda as a result. Or so he thinks...

I'm not so certain as it isn't often that a country's leader has a clear hissy fit towards another like Sarkozy(Thanks) did.