Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:10 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Reading and comprehension clearly not your strong point, is it.

Shush now, let the grown ups talk.

See this is the problem, people such as yourself make vaguely xenophobic statements and then get extremely defensive when someone questions them which means we can't ever have a realistic debate about this stuff.

Let's see what you actually wrote, you talked about the economic impact, social impact and demand on infrastructure cause by immigration. We can cross off the economic argument straight away because numerous studies have shown that EU migrants have a positive net economic contribution, you also said you don't care if they're working so I would guess that's not high on your list of priorities. Demand on infrastructure is a total non-argument because a larger population should in theory mean more workers in every sector, if that isn't happening it's a problem with the system rather than an issue of 'too many people'. And in fact the reality if you ever go to a hospital or doctors surgery is the immigrants are almost always the ones treating people rather than being treated. Without immigrantion the NHS would likely fall apart because our services are grossly underfunded and not enough is being done to train British healthcare workers. So yeah, we can scratch that argument too.

Then we have the 'social cost'. Which as far as I can tell is another way of saying that you don't like immigrants, and that's your only real argument here that doesn't fall down under the slightest bit of scrutiny. So yeah, based on this I conclude that you are a xenophobe who doesn't like immigrants, even if you don't want to admit it to yourself. If I'm misinterpreting your posts then please correct me.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:41 pm  

I love how some people are still deluded enough to think that this is anything other than a shitshow power grab by the extreme right and they think they personally will still be better off out of the EU. It's time to wake up, Brexit could be successful if done properly and with care, but we have the exact opposite of that happening right now and the worst offenders to democracy have become the self titled Brexit dreamteam

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:55 pm  

headhunter wrote:

See this is the problem, people such as yourself make vaguely xenophobic statements and then get extremely defensive when someone questions them which means we can't ever have a realistic debate about this stuff.

No, the problem is the left immediately make inflammatory comments such as 'you don't like foreigners'. Throw schoolyard insults, get them in return.

Oh and if you simply read this thread you will see a 'realistic' debate over many months. Wrong again.

Let's see what you actually wrote, you talked about the economic impact, social impact and demand on infrastructure cause by immigration. We can cross off the economic argument straight away because numerous studies have shown that EU migrants have a positive net economic contribution, you also said you don't care if they're working so I would guess that's not high on your list of priorities.

No, you can't cross it off. Mass uncontrolled immigration in reality brings in massive numbers of low earners. Low wages are squeezed, housing stock is squeezed, infrastructure is squeezed. So yes the Treasury might see a few more sheckles but plenty of people feel the squeeze in many ways. That most immigrants work and pay tax is lovely, but there is far more at play than that. Too many people, too quickly.

Demand on infrastructure is a total non-argument because a larger population should in theory mean more workers in every sector, if that isn't happening it's a problem with the system rather than an issue of 'too many people'. And in fact the reality if you ever go to a hospital or doctors surgery is the immigrants are almost always the ones treating people rather than being treated. Without immigrantion the NHS would likely fall apart because our services are grossly underfunded and not enough is being done to train British healthcare workers. So yeah, we can scratch that argument too.

Nope, you can't. The reason being infrastructure takes years, sometimes decades to plan and build. Net migration each year is insane at around 250,000 (around 50% of our total population growth). Are there more GPs, houses, hospital beds, school places, roads, etc immediately in place to account for this growth? No, there aren't. Once again: too many, too quickly.

A question I ask all Remainers is this: if you're a local council, how can you forecast how many school places, hospital beds, GPs, houses, etc you need and plan effectively for the future - if you have no frigging idea how many people are going to arrive? You can't.

Yes, the NHS would struggle if every immigrant left. But that's not going to happen. For a start, only around 12% of NHS staff are non-British and the majority of those are non-EU. That being said, if the NHS had planned and recruited effectively we would never have relied on overseas labour to any degree.

Then we have the 'social cost'. Which as far as I can tell is another way of saying that you don't like immigrants, and that's your only real argument here that doesn't fall down under the slightest bit of scrutiny. So yeah, based on this I conclude that you are a xenophobe who doesn't like immigrants, even if you don't want to admit it to yourself. If I'm misinterpreting your posts then please correct me.

Over the last decade massive areas of our towns and cities have changed beyond recognition due to immigration. EU and non-EU. Of course the left don't care about the upheaval this brings - in fact anyone who makes any complaint is mechanically accused of xenophobia (oh, look at what you said). I still fail to understand why the left disregard the concerns of so many Britons and...oh yes I remember now, diversity is oh so wonderful and Jeremy Corbyn.

Honestly, at this stage only the most blinkered leftist loon still insists uncontrolled immigration is a good thing. Oh it's a nice cosy concept if movement of people is reasonably equal...but it's not. Eastern and Southern European (and many non-EU) immigrants are flooding to the UK, France, the Germanic regions and Scandinavia (in part due to the failure of the Euro). Opening the borders between such economically unequal countries was always a feckin stupid idea.

Sensible, controlled immigration is a wholly positive thing for any country. Unfortunately that's not what we have right now.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:34 pm  

Does anyone actually believe that we will end up with the Brexit deal, thay May & Co seem to be dreaming about ?

Free trade with the EU
No hard border in Ireland
Bespoke customs union
Free to establish our own trade deals with the rest of the world

The Tories appear to be on the brink of civil war and Labour, god help us.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:16 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Does anyone actually believe that we will end up with the Brexit deal, thay May & Co seem to be dreaming about ?

Free trade with the EU
No hard border in Ireland
Bespoke customs union
Free to establish our own trade deals with the rest of the world

The Tories appear to be on the brink of civil war and Labour, god help us.

I'm beginning to wonder if Labour are deliberately playing the long game. If they come out now and oppose Brexit altogether, there'll be a backlash - but as it is now becoming abundantly clear that the 35 or so hardline Brexiteers in the Tory party are in fantasy land in terms of the 'deal' they keep banging on about, and as more and more information emerges showing that Brexit will damage the economy for years to come, one would imagine that all but the daft racists who voted Leave to get rid of Polish people, will see the folly of the whole thing. Some polls already suggest that a majority of people, given the opportunity, would vote Remain.

Maybe JC is letting it play out - the Tories are tearing themselves apart and Mrs May is enduring death by a thousand cuts; and public opinion is slowly shifting - there will be a sweet spot when it's not political suicide to block it - hopefully through a vote in parliament on the final deal.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:22 pm  

bren2k wrote:

I'm beginning to wonder if Labour are deliberately playing the long game. If they come out now and oppose Brexit altogether, there'll be a backlash - but as it is now becoming abundantly clear that the 35 or so hardline Brexiteers in the Tory party are in fantasy land in terms of the 'deal' they keep banging on about, and as more and more information emerges showing that Brexit will damage the economy for years to come, one would imagine that all but the daft racists who voted Leave to get rid of Polish people, will see the folly of the whole thing. Some polls already suggest that a majority of people, given the opportunity, would vote Remain.

Maybe JC is letting it play out - the Tories are tearing themselves apart and Mrs May is enduring death by a thousand cuts; and public opinion is slowly shifting - there will be a sweet spot when it's not political suicide to block it - hopefully through a vote in parliament on the final deal.

In fairness, Labour are also split on the EU and Corbyn has been extremely shy about telling us what he thinks, cherry picking which aspects of "leave" that suit his agenda.
With such a fragile parliamentary majority, May has been walking a tightrope but, at some point she has to make it to he other side and this will inevitably cause her to fall both metaphorically and politically.
Every chance of another general election, right in the midst of EU negotiations.
It looked a mess at the outset and looks no clearer now and all of our futures rest with the "strong and stable" leadership of the country.

As for the shift in public opinion, I understood that there had been relatively little change, certainly no substantial movement in either direction. Mind you, the pollsters haven't been too hot over the past 5 years or so.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:23 am  

wrencat1873 wrote: As for the shift in public opinion, I understood that there had been relatively little change, certainly no substantial movement in either direction. Mind you, the pollsters haven't been too hot over the past 5 years or so. Personal well-being in the UK: July 2016 to June 2017 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... tojune2017

wrencat1873 wrote: As for the shift in public opinion, I understood that there had been relatively little change, certainly no substantial movement in either direction. Mind you, the pollsters haven't been too hot over the past 5 years or so. Personal well-being in the UK: July 2016 to June 2017 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... tojune2017

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:20 am  

Whether it's deal or no deal the Tories will remain split. The idea that a referendum would "settle this issue once and for all" is proven to be complete baloney.

Split parties don't usually win elections. Labour is keeping quiet because they too are split but will end up picking up the pieces and a situation far worse than 2010 with public services in ruins, country even more in debt and operating at a trading handicap in comparison with our competitors.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:43 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

In fairness, Labour are also split on the EU and Corbyn has been extremely shy about telling us what he thinks, cherry picking which aspects of "leave" that suit his agenda.

I remain of the view that at this moment in time, there is no meaningful political gain in coming out as directly opposing Brexit; that would engender a massive campaign from the right wing MSM, and the resulting dog whistle reaction from those people who seem to agree that having any kind of political view that doesn't align with their own, makes them a 'traitor' or an 'enemy of the people.'

I'm relatively relaxed about Labour's position at the moment - the Tories are by any measure ballsing up the negotiations, and their leader is on a knife-edge in terms of any kind of longevity; if there's one thing the Tories do well, it's ruthlessly kill off a weak leader - as can be seen by JRM's sinister cabal of 35 or so MP's, who have formed a party within a party - they're not far off a leadership challenge with those kind of numbers, and with the Minister for the 18th Century the hot favourite to take over, I'm content that would make the Tories unelectable for a number of years to come.

I think there's plenty more to play out before the so-called transition period is over, and as has been pointed out many times by the man who drafted it, A50 can be revoked at any time. Meanwhile, Labour's take on the NHS, social care, privatisation, homelessness, inequality etc is gaining popular support - there might still be a chance to salvage something from this mess.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:47 am  

bren2k wrote:

if there's one thing the Tories do well, it's ruthlessly kill off a weak leader

Interesting watching Stephen Fry on The Last Leg on Friday night. He summed it up pretty well - if you're a Conservative party leader, the enemy isn't sitting opposite you, they're sitting behind you.

If the ground would open up and swallow her, May would be more than relieved. My big question... Why is her hubby always hanging around like a bad smell?