Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:03 pm  

DaveO wrote:

Freedom of movement does not give anyone the right to remain here if they are a burden on the State. You have not been able to pitch up here and remain be a burden on the state since 2006 when The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 came into force in UK law. That basically says you either have a job or can prove you won't be a burden by having things like your own comprehensive health insurance. EU migrants also can't claim unemployment benefit for three months and if they don't have a job after six months they can be deported. Other EU countries limit full access to benefits until after you have paid into the system for a number of years (five in Germany). In Germany there was a case where someone had lived there for 3 years supporting themselves but then tried to claim child support on the birth of their first child but was denied it by the ECJ because they had never worked so never paid into the system. So unless you simply don't like foreigners your concerns over Freedom of Movement were ill founded and no basis for a vote to leave.

Aware of all that. Though in reality the system can be manipulated in various ways to extend into years. I can't find the article that demonstrated how but it's to do with time in the country, proof of job seeking, etc. And how many actually leave once the 6 months is up? No-one seems to know, which suggests it's not an efficient system.

Either way, none of the above gives us control over limiting the numbers allowed to enter the country and commence their residence in the first place. I've always said it's a numbers game (although other issues are also of concern). Whether the migrant is working or not is largely irrelevant, the reality is far too many people have arrived far too quickly. The fiscal impact is one thing, the social impact and demand on infrastructure and services is another.

In fact the main point I was actually making - and have made many times on here - was the EU's refusal to even consider negotiating. One of their biggest members and largest contributors expressed major concerns with the 'Pillar' of Freedom of Movement yet the EU thumbed their noses at us (one said we were acting like children) and repeatedly stated all the Pillars are non-negotiable.

Do I want to be a member of a blinkered movement that acts so arrogantly when a key member state and net contributor of billions a year raises concerns? No, do I feck.

So yes, perfectly happy with my reasons for voting leave and nothing to do with your idiotic final sentence Dave.

[DaveO]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:05 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Aware of all that. Though in reality the system can be manipulated in various ways to extend into years. I can't find the article that demonstrated how but it's to do with time in the country, proof of job seeking, etc. And how many actually leave once the 6 months is up? No-one seems to know, which suggests it's not an efficient system.

Either way, none of the above gives us control over limiting the numbers allowed to enter the country and commence their residence in the first place. I've always said it's a numbers game (although other issues are also of concern). Whether the migrant is working or not is largely irrelevant, the reality is far too many people have arrived far too quickly. The fiscal impact is one thing, the social impact and demand on infrastructure and services is another.

In fact the main point I was actually making - and have made many times on here - was the EU's refusal to even consider negotiating. One of their biggest members and largest contributors expressed major concerns with the 'Pillar' of Freedom of Movement yet the EU thumbed their noses at us (one said we were acting like children) and repeatedly stated all the Pillars are non-negotiable.

Do I want to be a member of a blinkered movement that acts so arrogantly when a key member state and net contributor of billions a year raises concerns? No, do I feck.

So yes, perfectly happy with my reasons for voting leave and nothing to do with your idiotic final sentence Dave.

In the campaign we were given the spectre of being overrun by Turks and Eastern Europeans and that we were powerless to do anything about it. Your post read to me that you thought this also. You may have known better but this lie was a trump card played by Farage in the closing stages of the campaign.

That we may not have actively sought to deport those who overstay is a failure of the UK government, no one else. Just along the same lines as letting tourists or students overstay or for that matter any of the usual mess they make of things such as allowing fraudulent benefit claims or failing to collect taxes.

I think it would be a pretty stupid idea to stop collecting taxes or paying benefits because we are bad at policing the system and I think it is equally stupid to vote to leave the EU due to concerns over our inept policing of FoM. It's a drastic over-reaction. Before that moron Cameron raised the prospect of a vote the EU was so far down the list of concerns for most voters except the UKIP fanatics it was off the bottom of the page. And the kippers only got on a roll when Cameron gave 'em the ammunition by his equally stupid attempt at another renegotiation.

As to an intransigent EU, we were part of the EU that drew up the Single Market Rules and the four freedoms in the first place and a leading player in that. People talk of the EU as it it is a political entity in its own right. It's not. It he the body that implements the will of its members and then only on issues that affect the EU itself such as the workings of the single market. That vast majority of our laws, rules and regulations are set down by our own parliament.

We are actually going to lose sovereignty by leaving because whether we end up with a Norway type agreement or a Canada type agree we will be complying with EU rules with no say in those rules.

[DaveO]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:10 pm  

A Dutch view on Brexit

A Dutch view on Brexit

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:36 pm  

DaveO wrote:

In the campaign we were given the spectre of being overrun by Turks and Eastern Europeans and that we were powerless to do anything about it. Your post read to me that you thought this also. You may have known better but this lie was a trump card played by Farage in the closing stages of the campaign.

That we may not have actively sought to deport those who overstay is a failure of the UK government, no one else. Just along the same lines as letting tourists or students overstay or for that matter any of the usual mess they make of things such as allowing fraudulent benefit claims or failing to collect taxes.

I think it would be a pretty stupid idea to stop collecting taxes or paying benefits because we are bad at policing the system and I think it is equally stupid to vote to leave the EU due to concerns over our inept policing of FoM. It's a drastic over-reaction. Before that moron Cameron raised the prospect of a vote the EU was so far down the list of concerns for most voters except the UKIP fanatics it was off the bottom of the page. And the kippers only got on a roll when Cameron gave 'em the ammunition by his equally stupid attempt at another renegotiation.

As to an intransigent EU, we were part of the EU that drew up the Single Market Rules and the four freedoms in the first place and a leading player in that. People talk of the EU as it it is a political entity in its own right. It's not. It he the body that implements the will of its members and then only on issues that affect the EU itself such as the workings of the single market. That vast majority of our laws, rules and regulations are set down by our own parliament.

We are actually going to lose sovereignty by leaving because whether we end up with a Norway type agreement or a Canada type agree we will be complying with EU rules with no say in those rules.

Indeed.
Assuming that we wish to continue trading with the EU, post Brexit, all of the regulations that Farage and his cronies sneered at, will still need to be in place.
Of course, when we conquer the brave new world, allowing us to export like never before and import untold amounts of cheap produce, the EU will be a distant memory. Unfortunately,this is more fantasy thinking but, at least it give the Brexiteers something to hold on to.
It was interesting to hear Howard Davies, chairman of The Royal Bank of Scotland, concede that Britain will most likely be losing a slice of it's much coveted financial sector. with the French and Germans positively salivating at the thought.
It does look like we will be paying an extremely high price for "taking back control".

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:11 pm  

DaveO wrote: In the campaign we were given the spectre of being overrun by Turks and Eastern Europeans and that we were powerless to do anything about it. Your post read to me that you thought this also. You may have known better but this lie was a trump card played by Farage in the closing stages of the campaign. Absolutely. I mean, only 13,000 have arrived from Eastern Europe...oh wait. I doubt Turkey will join the EU any time soon, especially with Erdogan in power. But as a secular state it was creeping towards membership - membership talks have been ongoing for years. You truly think we wouldn't see massive migration from Turkey if they did join? Deary me, you lot would make the same mistakes over and over. That we may not have actively sought to deport those who overstay is a failure of the UK government, no one else. Just along the same lines as letting tourists or students overstay or for that matter any of the usual mess they make of things such as allowing fraudulent benefit claims or failing to collect taxes. Yes it is. Partly because no-one in a position to do anything about understood there might be millions about to rock up, and never put systems in place, and any attempt to put controls in place was shouted down by the left and the EU. Any discussion of this is often shouted down today. Why people are so desperate for immigrants I don't know. Yes I do - because they blindly adhere to a certain ideology. I think it would be a pretty stupid idea to stop collecting taxes or paying benefits because we are bad at policing the system and I think it is equally stupid to vote to leave the EU due to concerns over our inept policing of FoM. It's a drastic over-reaction. Before that moron Cameron raised the prospect of a vote the EU was so far down the list of concerns for most voters except the UKIP fanatics it was off the bottom of the page. And the kippers only got on a roll when Cameron gave 'em the ammunition by his equally stupid attempt at another renegotiation. FoM is far from the only reason to leave. But while we're on the subject, FoM is a feckin moronic idea up there with signing Ryan Bailey, and should NEVER have been agreed. Oh it's a nice fluffy concept but it's causing massive issues for the countries of origin and destination - and the blinkered EU will never admit it. Paint some big red arrows over a map of Europe pointing from the East and several Med nations towards the UK, France, Scandinavia and the Germanic areas and you get a basic idea of all FoM has achieved. Immense pressure in some areas and a massive loss of working-age population from others. Stupid beyond belief. Tell me, why are you so concerned with the rights of others to come here and plainly don't give two tosses about the rights of the British people, who are forced to deal with massive and rapid social change, huge pressure on housing and public services, low wages being driven down and other issues such as the import of Eastern European organised crime? Are you a typical UK-hating loony leftist? A Corbynite, no less? As to an intransigent EU, we were part of the EU that drew up the Single Market Rules and the four freedoms in the first place and a leading player in that. People talk of the EU as it it is a political entity in its own right. It's not. It he the body that implements the will of its members and then only on issues that affect the EU itself such as the workings of the single market. That vast majority of our laws, rules and regulations are set down by our own parliament. Correct. In fact it's so good at implementing the will of its members it point blank rejected the will of one of its biggest members to consider renegotiating those pillars. If it's so wonderfully democratic why won't it even consider change? We are actually going to lose sovereignty by leaving because whether we end up with a Norway type agreement or a Canada type agree we will be complying with EU rules with no say in those rules. We shall see. Either way, the EU has a history of failure and I see no reason to expect anything different in the future. From the Euro to food mountains to fishing quotas to the Balkans conflicts to today - the refugee/migration crisis will continue to grow this summer, most of Southern Europe will continue to decline, youth unemployment will remain a huge problem and the Germanics at the helm want to drag the whole lot into 'ever closer union'. And guess what, you can't remove any of those steering the ship. They will force their ideology home at any cost. As I've said all along, the UK is in for a rollercoaster for a few years but when the dust settles things will carry on (with a few changes, granted) and in the long term we'll all be better off while the EU continues to battle its demons.

DaveO wrote: In the campaign we were given the spectre of being overrun by Turks and Eastern Europeans and that we were powerless to do anything about it. Your post read to me that you thought this also. You may have known better but this lie was a trump card played by Farage in the closing stages of the campaign. Absolutely. I mean, only 13,000 have arrived from Eastern Europe...oh wait. I doubt Turkey will join the EU any time soon, especially with Erdogan in power. But as a secular state it was creeping towards membership - membership talks have been ongoing for years. You truly think we wouldn't see massive migration from Turkey if they did join? Deary me, you lot would make the same mistakes over and over. That we may not have actively sought to deport those who overstay is a failure of the UK government, no one else. Just along the same lines as letting tourists or students overstay or for that matter any of the usual mess they make of things such as allowing fraudulent benefit claims or failing to collect taxes. Yes it is. Partly because no-one in a position to do anything about understood there might be millions about to rock up, and never put systems in place, and any attempt to put controls in place was shouted down by the left and the EU. Any discussion of this is often shouted down today. Why people are so desperate for immigrants I don't know. Yes I do - because they blindly adhere to a certain ideology. I think it would be a pretty stupid idea to stop collecting taxes or paying benefits because we are bad at policing the system and I think it is equally stupid to vote to leave the EU due to concerns over our inept policing of FoM. It's a drastic over-reaction. Before that moron Cameron raised the prospect of a vote the EU was so far down the list of concerns for most voters except the UKIP fanatics it was off the bottom of the page. And the kippers only got on a roll when Cameron gave 'em the ammunition by his equally stupid attempt at another renegotiation. FoM is far from the only reason to leave. But while we're on the subject, FoM is a feckin moronic idea up there with signing Ryan Bailey, and should NEVER have been agreed. Oh it's a nice fluffy concept but it's causing massive issues for the countries of origin and destination - and the blinkered EU will never admit it. Paint some big red arrows over a map of Europe pointing from the East and several Med nations towards the UK, France, Scandinavia and the Germanic areas and you get a basic idea of all FoM has achieved. Immense pressure in some areas and a massive loss of working-age population from others. Stupid beyond belief. Tell me, why are you so concerned with the rights of others to come here and plainly don't give two tosses about the rights of the British people, who are forced to deal with massive and rapid social change, huge pressure on housing and public services, low wages being driven down and other issues such as the import of Eastern European organised crime? Are you a typical UK-hating loony leftist? A Corbynite, no less? As to an intransigent EU, we were part of the EU that drew up the Single Market Rules and the four freedoms in the first place and a leading player in that. People talk of the EU as it it is a political entity in its own right. It's not. It he the body that implements the will of its members and then only on issues that affect the EU itself such as the workings of the single market. That vast majority of our laws, rules and regulations are set down by our own parliament. Correct. In fact it's so good at implementing the will of its members it point blank rejected the will of one of its biggest members to consider renegotiating those pillars. If it's so wonderfully democratic why won't it even consider change? We are actually going to lose sovereignty by leaving because whether we end up with a Norway type agreement or a Canada type agree we will be complying with EU rules with no say in those rules. We shall see. Either way, the EU has a history of failure and I see no reason to expect anything different in the future. From the Euro to food mountains to fishing quotas to the Balkans conflicts to today - the refugee/migration crisis will continue to grow this summer, most of Southern Europe will continue to decline, youth unemployment will remain a huge problem and the Germanics at the helm want to drag the whole lot into 'ever closer union'. And guess what, you can't remove any of those steering the ship. They will force their ideology home at any cost. As I've said all along, the UK is in for a rollercoaster for a few years but when the dust settles things will carry on (with a few changes, granted) and in the long term we'll all be better off while the EU continues to battle its demons.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:12 am  

Cronus wrote:

Whether the migrant is working or not is largely irrelevant, the reality is far too many people have arrived far too quickly. The fiscal impact is one thing, the social impact and demand on infrastructure and services is another.

So it is that you don't like foreigners then.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:15 am  

If the UK leaves the EU and keaves properly and quickly (unlikely) the EU will cease to exist in its present form within 10 years. The fault lines are already showing - when Italy, France et al are called on to make up the budget deficit the popular uprisings will cause it to crumble.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:11 am  

If the UK leaves the EU and keaves properly and quickly (unlikely) the EU will cease to exist in its present form within 10 years. The fault lines are already showing - when Italy, France et al are called on to make up the budget deficit the popular uprisings will cause it to crumble.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:30 pm  

headhunter wrote:

So it is that you don't like foreigners then.

Reading and comprehension clearly not your strong point, is it.

Shush now, let the grown ups talk.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:00 pm  

Dally wrote: If the UK leaves the EU and keaves properly and quickly (unlikely) the EU will cease to exist in its present form within 10 years. The fault lines are already showing - when Italy, France et al are called on to make up the budget deficit the popular uprisings will cause it to crumble. If...and it's a huge IF...the EU sees the reality of the growing dissatisfaction within many member states (let's see if they accuse other members of 'acting like children'!), and the blindly stubborn Germanics at the helm have a miraculous change of heart and agree to reform some of the 'pillars' - then the UK could consider rejoining. In the meantime we'll be in a stronger and better place within a decade at most. As a snapshot, the Economist published this article Harrogate offers a glimpse of life when migrants leave and tried their best to angle it negatively. Exactly what many of us predicted: rising wages, more job opportunities, lower unemployment, house and rental prices increasing at a more reasonable pace. Lower end wages have risen by 9%. Oh and look, businesses aren't going to the wall - they're adapting, some paying teenagers above minimum wage. Hopefully public services are less busy. How terrible.

Dally wrote: If the UK leaves the EU and keaves properly and quickly (unlikely) the EU will cease to exist in its present form within 10 years. The fault lines are already showing - when Italy, France et al are called on to make up the budget deficit the popular uprisings will cause it to crumble. If...and it's a huge IF...the EU sees the reality of the growing dissatisfaction within many member states (let's see if they accuse other members of 'acting like children'!), and the blindly stubborn Germanics at the helm have a miraculous change of heart and agree to reform some of the 'pillars' - then the UK could consider rejoining. In the meantime we'll be in a stronger and better place within a decade at most. As a snapshot, the Economist published this article Harrogate offers a glimpse of life when migrants leave and tried their best to angle it negatively. Exactly what many of us predicted: rising wages, more job opportunities, lower unemployment, house and rental prices increasing at a more reasonable pace. Lower end wages have risen by 9%. Oh and look, businesses aren't going to the wall - they're adapting, some paying teenagers above minimum wage. Hopefully public services are less busy. How terrible.