Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:31 am  

Durham Giant wrote: And for those who think this is just a political debate. It is not this is about people dying. Today the sun and the times hopefully they are right wing enough for some of our posters to accept report that there have been 7500 deaths in care homes. Add that to the announced figures from the government in hospitals and it means we are a about 200 behind italy on total deaths. With the announced death rates following similar trajectory’s As yesterday that means Britain may overtake Italy today in number of deaths. That makes Britain the worst in Europe and second only to the USA. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries The link above gives the best figures I have seen for announced deaths Weren't the rest of Europe only reporting hospital deaths?

Durham Giant wrote: And for those who think this is just a political debate. It is not this is about people dying. Today the sun and the times hopefully they are right wing enough for some of our posters to accept report that there have been 7500 deaths in care homes. Add that to the announced figures from the government in hospitals and it means we are a about 200 behind italy on total deaths. With the announced death rates following similar trajectory’s As yesterday that means Britain may overtake Italy today in number of deaths. That makes Britain the worst in Europe and second only to the USA. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries The link above gives the best figures I have seen for announced deaths Weren't the rest of Europe only reporting hospital deaths?

[Durham Giant]

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:00 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Weren't the rest of Europe only reporting hospital deaths?

No as I understand it it was all deaths from C19.

[Durham Giant]

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:04 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Nobody thinks employees are stupid you wouldn't employ them - if you did your firm would be worse for it - unlike the public sector the only way you can keep these people in jobs is to ensure your revenues exceed your costs i.e. profits - sadly a misunderstood concept from you public sector administrators - that is what its like at the sharp end.

Really. Barbour making ppe is surely more about the government buying that stuff and then paying for it through taxes. Is that not how the nhs is funded.

This is not about making something and selling it on the open market it is about National need.


It keeps nhs staff alive, it keeps Carers alive, it keeps old people alive, it keeps patients alive.


That is a financial responsibility the tax payer should burden.

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:57 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Nobody thinks employees are stupid you wouldn't employ them - if you did your firm would be worse for it - unlike the public sector the only way you can keep these people in jobs is to ensure your revenues exceed your costs i.e. profits - sadly a misunderstood concept from you public sector administrators - that is what its like at the sharp end.

Are you condoning, inadequate provision of ESSENTIAL clothing (PPE) to SAVE MONEY - I think that you have lost the plot AGAIN

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:21 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Are you condoning, inadequate provision of ESSENTIAL clothing (PPE) to SAVE MONEY - I think that you have lost the plot AGAIN

It's all about the money, money, money with Sal, you should know by now. He's become a regularly poster of deaths versus spend trade-offs. It wasn't long ago he was justifying violence and deaths in Northern Ireland as a trade-off for there being no Irish border after Brexit.

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:38 am  

Durham Giant wrote:

No as I understand it it was all deaths from C19.

Surely we aren’t measuring differently to other countries

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:53 am  

King Street Cat wrote:

It's all about the money, money, money with Sal, you should know by now. He's become a regularly poster of deaths versus spend trade-offs. It wasn't long ago he was justifying violence and deaths in Northern Ireland as a trade-off for there being no Irish border after Brexit.

I know.
With him it's the cost of everything and the value of nothing. People are just a commodity, of little value. Mind you, he's a good fit with the ruling party, despite their current thirst for spending.
You just know that when we start to poke our noses through the other side of the current pandemic, the work, dedication and risk that some have taken will be quickly forgotten and we'll all be back "in this together", wages frozen or possibly cut to bring down the eye watering deficit.
A re-release of "Ghost Town" by the Specials will be in order.

Going off on a slight tangent, it would be a very good time to impose long term restrictions on flights, to reduce carbon emissions etc.
I know that there wont be anything like the numbers of people moving between countries initially and it would be an ideal chance to set some limits on flying.

As we are now, one or two overseas trips would be an absolute luxury anyway.

[Durham Giant]

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:43 am  

ColD wrote:

Surely we aren’t measuring differently to other countries

As far as I know we are .

When I checked the italian figures with a friend in Italy he says that he thinks they are all counted as they get the deaths from care homes counted.

Not only that there is pressure put on certain agencies in the UK to record deaths other than from corona virus.

Hence some deaths in the community are recorded as heart attack or COPD. Now those people would probably have died anyway but their life expectancy was shortened by c19. But they are no being counted. As they are not being tested for C19 n one knows .

This however is anecdotal and I cannot prove but the 7500 in care homes plus the 14,576 takes us to 22.076

Italy’s is 22,745 but there curve is definitely falling ie daily death rate ours has not plateaued yet.

Let’s look at how British politicians look at at Italy as the sick man of Europe

Will this make the UK the sickest man of Europe ?

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:50 am  

ColD wrote:

Surely we aren’t measuring differently to other countries

Countries around the world are measuring differently. There are differences in methodology and standards across medical response, testing, reporting and diagnoses. There are also enormous question marks over the cause of death, i.e. dying of CV19 or dying with CV19, which may never be answered.

Someone in a care home has serious heart disease. They've suffered a couple of heart attacks and a stroke in the past. They contract CV19, show symptoms and pass away from a fatal cardiac arrest. Is CV19 the direct or underlying cause of death? Or simply present? The doctor may put CV19 on the death certificate but it may not actually be the cause of death.

CV19 "can be given as cause of death even where a CV19 test result has not been received", and CV19 "is not a reason on its own to refer a death to a coroner". So it goes on the death certificate even if the doctor cannot be 100% sure the patient had it or to what degree it contributed to the death.

Furthermore in these emergency circumstances "any medical practitioner with GMC registration can sign the MCCD, even if they did not attend the deceased during their last illness" as long as they meet certain criteria. This is understandable given the demand on doctors and the fact many might be isolating or poorly themselves.

Then you have political motivations. Countries such as China, Russia, Iran and Brazil are vastly under reporting their numbers, whereas others (I suspect including the UK based on death certificate advice) are erring on the side of over reporting, i.e. if CV19 is even suspected to be present, it's included on the death certificate as outlined above.

That's why the global numbers are little more than a very. very rough guideline. We'll probably never know the true picture.

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:05 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Are you condoning, inadequate provision of ESSENTIAL clothing (PPE) to SAVE MONEY - I think that you have lost the plot AGAIN

Not for one minute - all I am saying is, it is sat behind you keyboard to criticise and hindsight is a wonderful thing - I also said in another post that there is no doubt the government is throwing what ever monies are needed for the NHS to get through this.

Do you think are not working hard enough? If not what more do you want them to do - have they made errors it would be impossible to get it all right given the circumstances.