Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Wed May 24, 2017 2:04 pm  

Dally wrote:

But you can do it if there is a will. We stood for greater decency at the time of WW2 and did it.

And how did we do it? Total war - nobody talked the Nazis out of their beliefs.

Not that I'm advocating that of course - we've tried bombing these people, and that's probably one of the single biggest causal factors in the rise of fundamentalist Islamist ideologies; every religion has an element of nutjobbery, but very few have the fuel that international policy in the Middle East has provided.

And just for clarity - the decision to raise the threat level to 'critical' is entirely separate from the decision to put the Army on the streets; the latter is nothing to do with JTAC - it's a government decision, and one which conveniently helps to disguise the fact that the police are unable to respond appropriately due to lack of resources - because the Home Secretary (Mrs May) slashed their budgets to ribbons and took 20,000 police officers off the streets.

[Bullseye]

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Wed May 24, 2017 2:58 pm  

Dally wrote:

I despair.

Good argument, well made.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Wed May 24, 2017 2:59 pm  

Dally wrote:

It is not the only way. It is one strand but to believe these people are wholly influenced by clerics is naïve.

True enough, but certain clerics facilitate platforms for some of these jihadist speakers.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Wed May 24, 2017 6:58 pm  

Dally wrote:

We could start, as in WW1 & 2 by interning potential threats. Start with those 'known' to the security services, their extended families and associates. There are lots of other practical things that could be done, rather than just talking. Until our government starts taking this threat as seriously as the perpetrators take their war / terrorism this will keep happening.

no chance of this happening police are watching but the terrorists have human rights pity the victims dont

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Wed May 24, 2017 9:23 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Although it's not palatable, at some point there will need to be dialogue with the leaders of ISIS and their ilk to find a long term solution, assuming that there may be one.
At the moment, everyone is rightly outraged but, that wont stop a repeat of this, either in the UK or, elsewhere.
The aspect of this that disgusts me most is that it is being done in the name of religion and perhaps if the religious leaders of all faiths started preaching a slightly different message, we may actually have a better world to live in.

Dialogue with ISIS? And lefties wonder why they're labelled 'loony'.

ISIS don't want dialogue. They want us (the West) dead. All of us. FFS, they want all non-ISIS conforming Muslims dead, so we're not in line for any cosy chats any time soon.

They want to re-establish the Caliphate and spread it across Europe, and eventually the world, under strict Sharia rule. They will kill anyone standing in their way (by a variety of gruesome means, and all on video). They celebrate setting off shrapnel bombs amongst crowds of young girls. Be under no illusion: this is their goal.

Unfortunately the Western liberal mindset is wholly incapable of dealing with this, and of acknowledging the fact our policies of open borders, aggressive political correctness and 'tolerance' are allowing these extremist mindsets to flourish right in our communities, while we're at war with them elsewhere.

I'm a Mancunian. 3 of the victims were local to me. I've felt incredibly sad and heartbroken since the attack - but I'm also angry. And let's be honest, all this 'Love Manchester' stuff is great, but it doesn't actually achieve anything. A vigil, a poem, a few pictures of Muslims smiling with Police officers, people handing out drinks, cafes offering free brews - all very nice and perhaps necessary at this moment, but there's a huge undercurrent of anger being ignored by the press.

Do whatever is necessary. If someone is found to have ISIS training manuals on their PC, lock them up or deport them. If someone is posting pro-ISIS views or flying ISIS flags, the same applies. If the law needs changing, change it. I've said it since 7/7: stop being so nice when so many people want to kill us. Given what we know about Salman Abedi, he should never, ever have been walking the streets of the UK.

And another thing: if I see or hear someone else declaring 'this is nothing to do with Islam', I might huff testily. ISIS follow Wahhabi Sunni Islam, and they are far from alone in this. Everything is carried out in the name of Allah, and there is plenty of support for any attacks on the West. 'This has nothing to do with most Muslims' is more accurate. I don't blame the wider Muslim community, I blame the attackers first and foremost, and I blame us and our politicians for not being willing to take the hard, unpopular decisions at home, while having made some terrible decisions across the Middle East.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Wed May 24, 2017 9:25 pm  

bren2k wrote:

And just for clarity - the decision to raise the threat level to 'critical' is entirely separate from the decision to put the Army on the streets; the latter is nothing to do with JTAC - it's a government decision, and one which conveniently helps to disguise the fact that the police are unable to respond appropriately due to lack of resources - because the Home Secretary (Mrs May) slashed their budgets to ribbons and took 20,000 police officers off the streets.

You should try listening to what people actually say. JTAC made their decision based on intelligence, and the Met subsequently requested implementation of part a plan called Operation Temperer, in which army personnel replace numbers of armed police in mainly guarding duties, freeing those armed police to operate elsewhere while the response continues. All of this has been confirmed by various individuals, including Cressida Dick and Mark Rowley.

So, for clarity - it was a Met decision and it's an entirely sensible response.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Wed May 24, 2017 10:03 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Dialogue with ISIS? And lefties wonder why they're labelled 'loony'.

ISIS don't want dialogue. They want us (the West) dead. All of us. FFS, they want all non-ISIS conforming Muslims dead, so we're not in line for any cosy chats any time soon.

They want to re-establish the Caliphate and spread it across Europe, and eventually the world, under strict Sharia rule. They will kill anyone standing in their way (by a variety of gruesome means, and all on video). They celebrate setting off shrapnel bombs amongst crowds of young girls. Be under no illusion: this is their goal.

Unfortunately the Western liberal mindset is wholly incapable of dealing with this, and of acknowledging the fact our policies of open borders, aggressive political correctness and 'tolerance' are allowing these extremist mindsets to flourish right in our communities, while we're at war with them elsewhere.

I'm a Mancunian. 3 of the victims were local to me. I've felt incredibly sad and heartbroken since the attack - but I'm also angry. And let's be honest, all this 'Love Manchester' stuff is great, but it doesn't actually achieve anything. A vigil, a poem, a few pictures of Muslims smiling with Police officers, people handing out drinks, cafes offering free brews - all very nice and perhaps necessary at this moment, but there's a huge undercurrent of anger being ignored by the press.

Do whatever is necessary. If someone is found to have ISIS training manuals on their PC, lock them up or deport them. If someone is posting pro-ISIS views or flying ISIS flags, the same applies. If the law needs changing, change it. I've said it since 7/7: stop being so nice when so many people want to kill us. Given what we know about Salman Abedi, he should never, ever have been walking the streets of the UK.

And another thing: if I see or hear someone else declaring 'this is nothing to do with Islam', I might huff testily. ISIS follow Wahhabi Sunni Islam, and they are far from alone in this. Everything is carried out in the name of Allah, and there is plenty of support for any attacks on the West. 'This has nothing to do with most Muslims' is more accurate. I don't blame the wider Muslim community, I blame the attackers first and foremost, and I blame us and our politicians for not being willing to take the hard, unpopular decisions at home, while having made some terrible decisions across the Middle East.

Thank you for your excellent summary. To think that the Manchester bomber and his family were welcomed into our country and given a house and education . The thanks we got was this dreadful atrocity.

[Bullseye]

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Thu May 25, 2017 8:01 am  

Removing Gadaffi and leaving a vacuum behind to be filled by jihadis has worked really well for Libya and the rest of us.

Cameron was eager to act as the international statesman when he was supporting airstrikes. Where is he now?

Shades of Iraq.

When you create these failed states you create opportunists for extremists.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Thu May 25, 2017 8:26 am  

Cronus wrote:

You should try listening to what people actually say. JTAC made their decision based on intelligence, and the Met subsequently requested implementation of part a plan called Operation Temperer, in which army personnel replace numbers of armed police in mainly guarding duties, freeing those armed police to operate elsewhere while the response continues. All of this has been confirmed by various individuals, including Cressida Dick and Mark Rowley.

So, for clarity - it was a Met decision and it's an entirely sensible response.

Because the police don't have the resource to respond appropriately; Mrs May was warned directly of this by the Police Fed conference in 2013 - where an officer she had previously presented the Community Police Officer of the Year award to, stood up and said he had since resigned, because her cuts had decimated community policing, meaning that they weren't able to gather intelligence from local communities about activities like this, because there weren't enough of them.

Spin it however you like, but deploying the army is not an inevitable result of the threat level being raised to critical; that's happened twice before, without the army being used to replaced police - it's happened because our Tory austerity police force can't respond.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Thu May 25, 2017 10:39 am  

Every now and again the Police get stretched so we supplement them with the Army. Big deal. Why pay over the top for coppers we don't need day to day, plus it was an opportunity to drive out the dead wood As a result, tests taken by the Metropolitan Police in 2011 found that just 25 per cent of male officers and staff were of normal weight, with 52 per cent overweight, 22 per cent obese and 1 per cent morbidly obese. Of the women surveyed, 50 per cent were of normal weight with 32 per cent overweight, 16 per cent obese and 2 per cent morbidly obese. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... tests.html Typical poorly managed public sector organisation

Every now and again the Police get stretched so we supplement them with the Army. Big deal. Why pay over the top for coppers we don't need day to day, plus it was an opportunity to drive out the dead wood As a result, tests taken by the Metropolitan Police in 2011 found that just 25 per cent of male officers and staff were of normal weight, with 52 per cent overweight, 22 per cent obese and 1 per cent morbidly obese. Of the women surveyed, 50 per cent were of normal weight with 32 per cent overweight, 16 per cent obese and 2 per cent morbidly obese. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... tests.html Typical poorly managed public sector organisation