Re: Unions, are they evil? : Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:02 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Interesting - perhaps you can explain why sickness in the union dominated public sector is much higher than in the private sector?

There are differences in the types of jobs between the two sectors and some sectors have higher likelihoods of sickness than others.
On average, women have more sickness absence than men and the public sector employs a higher proportion of female workers.
The sickness rates only counts someone as sick if they work fewer hours than contracted for. It would exclude someone who is sick and makes up for the lost hours at a later point in the week. It is possible that individuals in smaller workforces are under more pressure to make up any lost hours and these workforces are more prominent in the private sector.
Individuals within the private sector are also more likely to not be paid for a spell of sickness than individuals within the public sector.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Maybe you could also explain what went on with the rail franchise fiasco - was that not caused by the good old public sector?

No. It was caused by government incompetence in the awarding of a private contract.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Also the culture of lying within the police - two examples only this week - are the police public servants?

I'm unsure which examples you're referring to.

Sal Paradise wrote:

The most efficient car plant in the UK has no union influence - perhaps the two things may be related?

I do wish you'd stop making things up. The most efficient car plant in Europe is represented by Unite.

Sal Paradise wrote:

BBC handing out payments so its stars can avoid tax - another example of public sector behaviour

Are you now saying that public sector bodies shouldn't adopt private sector practices?

Sal Paradise wrote:

In Germany the unions know their position - the companies rule the roost.

No, in Germany the unions and the employers work together with mutual respect.

Sal Paradise wrote:

You holding out the public sector as a bastion of morality is yet another laughable post of yours - your myopic views on some subjects do you no favours.

Lol.

Re: Unions, are they evil? : Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:35 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Interesting - perhaps you can explain why sickness in the union dominated public sector is much higher than in the private sector?

Stress perhaps? Not least because of ill-informed judgmental cretins jerking their little knees orgasmically everytime the likes of Murdoch or Dacre's rags tell them that public service workers are lazy, hopeless etc etc  and, of course 'don't live in the real world'.

I have a neighbour who's a teacher, who has been having to deal with a suicidal pupil probably with (inherited) bipolar. Not remotely stressful, obviously. Bet you have that all the time, don't you, dearie?

Met a trading standards officer on Friday who, with diminishing resources ('cos it's a waste of taxpayers' money, obviously) tries to catch and stop rogue traders who are ripping off elderly people for thousands of pounds. Who cares, eh? Bet a private company could do it so much better – and make a profit!

Probation officers dealing with difficult cases, resources slashed and trying to do the frontline stuff instead of the paperwork. No stress there, since the outcomes of their work are meaningless.

Social workers – villified by rabid media if anything goes wrong (even when that same cretinous right-wing media gets it wrong – as with the Baby P case: it was NOT the social workers who stopped the child being taken from his home, but lawyers, but that fact would have ruined a good chance for some in the media to entertain the likes of you) but never hearing praise when things go right; indeed, never even seeing or hearing it reported. No stress there, then, particularly since lives are sometimes at stake.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Maybe you could also explain what went on with the rail franchise fiasco - was that not caused by the good old public sector?

Actually, it was caused by people holding your cretinous political ideology: that private is always better than public and that nothing in the world is more important than profit.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Also the culture of lying within the police - two examples only this week - are the police public servants?

Well, that explains the Murdoch press then. And banks. And business. And ...

See? They were just behaving like the private sector they've all been told to behave like.

Sal Paradise wrote:

The most efficient car plant in the UK has no union influence - perhaps the two things may be related?

Indeed, we could add to the list the lies of Sal. Or did you pluck that factually incorrect comment out of the air in hope?

Sal Paradise wrote:

BBC handing out payments so its stars can avoid tax - another example of public sector behaviour...

After being told by the government of the day to become more market-oriented and chase viewing figures, it's clearly just doing what others do.

Sal Paradise wrote:

If you think News International is the only news organisation who operated in an unethical manner you are deluded...

I have never suggested it was. You will find, however, that the scale of criminality (because that is what is being discussed, not a lack of ethics) does seem to be concentrated, to a gargantuan degree, in one company and one company alone.

You can probably get reading and comprehension lessons; Sal, even at your time in life they might help you. Go private – you'll be helping someone make a profit.

Sal Paradise wrote:

In Germany the unions know their position - the companies rule the roost...

Oh yes, those Krauts know how to tug their little forelocks etc.

Is it all the crawling to the bosses, Sal, that's turned what's between your ears to mush?

Is that what has caused you to post such factually incorrect garbage?

Sal Paradise wrote:

You holding out the public sector as a bastion of morality is yet another laughable post of yours - your myopic views on some subjects do you no favours.

I didn't. Learn to read.

And as for "do you no favours" ...

This from Mr "Real World" himself is just hilarious.

Re: Unions, are they evil? : Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:10 pm  

Was in Birmingham yesterday and saw all the various stalls and marches,by far the largest demo was Stop the War , the Badger Cull protestors were all a diverse /strange bunch -some dressed in combat gear others looked like Greenham Common leftovers and quite a few older matriach types. However the union stalls were forlorn just manned by a couple of reps , no one looking at all the literature and massed piles of placards . The general gist of which seemed to be a call for a general strike.
When i finaaly saw a march either Unison ,Unite or PBS(?) the band and police outnumbered those taking part.
Even the Tories looked dissapointed at the indifference

Re: Unions, are they evil? : Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:22 pm  

Why the need for unions when we have politicians? After all, it was politicians who were the first to fight for an end to child labour, equal rights for women in the workplace, health and safety regulations in dangerous industries such as mining, the minimum wage, the right to fair representation at work, the right to paid maternity, paternity and adoptive leave etc. etc.

But seriously, it's depressingly obvious the only thing several contributors to this discussion know about unions is what they've been told. Perhaps they should educate themselves on the history of the labour movement in Britain (including its achievements and defeats) instead of witlessly regurgitating the same baseless, uncorroborated nonsense that's been passed about ever since the thirties and fourties when corporations realised they could achieve greater successes against organised labour using carefully crafted PR (or propaganda) than with gangs of thugs wielding blackjacks.

Re: Unions, are they evil? : Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:07 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

witlessly regurgitating the same baseless, uncorroborated nonsense that's been passed about ever since the thirties and fourties when corporations realised they could achieve greater successes against organised labour using carefully crafted PR (or propaganda) than with gangs of thugs wielding blackjacks.

or maybe, just maybe, people can talk of their own experiences?

my experiences of Unions are, largely, positive, but when you get some local rep who has an agenda (and no f'ng brain) you can't make any progress.

maybe Mintball can tell us which part of the public sector usually vote, on mass, for strikes, and then get double time to work the weekend as they deliver a statutory duty?

Re: Unions, are they evil? : Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:29 pm  

Standee wrote:

or maybe, just maybe, people can talk of their own experiences?

my experiences of Unions are, largely, positive, but when you get some local rep who has an agenda (and no f'ng brain) you can't make any progress.

There's nothing wrong with conveying your personal experiences, provided they then aren't held as representative of the wider union movement whose actions, ideology and history you know little about.

Re: Unions, are they evil? : Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:59 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

There's nothing wrong with conveying your personal experiences, provided they then aren't held as representative of the wider union movement whose actions, ideology and history you know little about.

you're making an assumption about my knowledge, based on what?

Re: Unions, are they evil? : Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:35 am  

Mintball wrote:

Stress perhaps? Not least because of ill-informed judgmental cretins jerking their little knees orgasmically everytime the likes of Murdoch or Dacre's rags tell them that public service workers are lazy, hopeless etc etc  and, of course 'don't live in the real world'.

I have a neighbour who's a teacher, who has been having to deal with a suicidal pupil probably with (inherited) bipolar. Not remotely stressful, obviously. Bet you have that all the time, don't you, dearie?

Met a trading standards officer on Friday who, with diminishing resources ('cos it's a waste of taxpayers' money, obviously) tries to catch and stop rogue traders who are ripping off elderly people for thousands of pounds. Who cares, eh? Bet a private company could do it so much better – and make a profit!

Probation officers dealing with difficult cases, resources slashed and trying to do the frontline stuff instead of the paperwork. No stress there, since the outcomes of their work are meaningless.

Social workers – villified by rabid media if anything goes wrong (even when that same cretinous right-wing media gets it wrong – as with the Baby P case: it was NOT the social workers who stopped the child being taken from his home, but lawyers, but that fact would have ruined a good chance for some in the media to entertain the likes of you) but never hearing praise when things go right; indeed, never even seeing or hearing it reported. No stress there, then, particularly since lives are sometimes at stake.

Actually, it was caused by people holding your cretinous political ideology: that private is always better than public and that nothing in the world is more important than profit.

Well, that explains the Murdoch press then. And banks. And business. And ...

See? They were just behaving like the private sector they've all been told to behave like.

Indeed, we could add to the list the lies of Sal. Or did you pluck that factually incorrect comment out of the air in hope?

After being told by the government of the day to become more market-oriented and chase viewing figures, it's clearly just doing what others do.

I have never suggested it was. You will find, however, that the scale of criminality (because that is what is being discussed, not a lack of ethics) does seem to be concentrated, to a gargantuan degree, in one company and one company alone.

You can probably get reading and comprehension lessons; Sal, even at your time in life they might help you. Go private – you'll be helping someone make a profit.

Oh yes, those Krauts know how to tug their little forelocks etc.

Is it all the crawling to the bosses, Sal, that's turned what's between your ears to mush?

Is that what has caused you to post such factually incorrect garbage?

I didn't. Learn to read.

And as for "do you no favours" ...

This from Mr "Real World" himself is just hilarious.

So stress is more prevalent in the public sector!!! Have you got any evidence to back that up - no just another pointless ramble showing isolated cases, just like your rant about the Olympics because some food stall guy had to move for two weeks - it would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Nissan has a no strike arrangement with Unite - so effectively the union are just lap dogs - explains why the plant is so successful.

Just answer the question about the trains - not some clap trap about why it should be in public ownership - some public sector employees struggled to use Excel correctly. Interesting though how performance on the trains has improved since competition was introduced - bad stuff that competition.

Has the press ever been in public ownership? so they behaved like they always have like a private company - not sure what your point is, most scoop journalists are the pits no matter which paper they write for.

On the police - Bettinson has been forced to retire because of Hillsborough - you read into that what you like, and Sean Price was fired last week for numerous issues one of which was forcing colleagues to lie.

On the Germans suggest you dig out a Newsnight piece on Karcher where the balance of power in Germany between the unions and the bosses is very succinctly explained.

The private sector has its issues - but the public sector is not a model anyone would want to follow - it has been tried and failed miserably. The fact you thinking we should expand it shows you live in a fantasy land far from the "Real World"

Re: Unions, are they evil? : Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:02 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

So stress is more prevalent in the public sector!!! Have you got any evidence to back that up

The sickness rates.

Re: Unions, are they evil? : Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:12 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

On the police - Bettinson has been forced to retire because of Hillsborough

OK

Nothing to do with the fact that he is under investigation by his local police authority and IPCC then?

Jumping (with full pension) before he gets pushed...