Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Thu May 07, 2020 12:48 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

Can I just confirm, this is a wind up isnt it?
I mean, even if it isnt it's just anecdotal, and thanks for speaking on behalf of every older person in the country (I know you wont believe me but being a crown green bowler so know lots of 60/70/80 year olds, and they pretty much ALL TAKING IT SERIOUSLY).
And if any of them do want to give their lives, are they willing to kill other people who arent?

Maybe Bojo should just release lockdown for over 70s?

How can you be talking to them during lockdown - so how do really know what they think - most want to make the most of what life they have left - stuck in isolation for months on end is no quality of life it is just an existence. Do you think if someone said to them right you can either stay in isolation or you can get back out on the bowling green with all the risks you wouldn't be able to get on the bowling green.

We may never find a vaccine for this - look at HIV - no vaccine yet. So how long do you lock them down - indefinitely?

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Thu May 07, 2020 1:13 pm  

To be fair, I did have a tad of social distancing guilt last night.
Not for the barmaid, but for her elderly couple neighbours.
Especially when I nearly ended up knocking her through the wall into their bedroom.
If only I wasn't joking.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Thu May 07, 2020 1:18 pm  

WIZEB wrote:

To be fair, I did have a tad of social distancing guilt last night.
Not for the barmaid, but for her elderly couple neighbours.
Especially when I nearly ended up knocking her through the wall into their bedroom.
If only I wasn't joking.

Does she have a Labrador

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Thu May 07, 2020 1:25 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Does she have a Labrador

Given up on females with dogs.
The last one had a rat of a Jack Russell.
Fantastic for social distancing regs as it used to snarl anytime I went near her.
It used to spend many periods in the rain in her garden if she ever had to nip out.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Thu May 07, 2020 1:26 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

Welcome back to March. Do you understand the R rate and where we are today. It certainly isn't R x 2.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Thu May 07, 2020 1:44 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote: You sir, have a sick sense of humour. The country with the most time to prepare for the pandemic, has the highest death toll in Europe. You are VERY easily pleased - Boris & co have made a right cock of this so far and the UK is starting to race away with the title of worst response to the covid19 pandemic. I'm just surprised that you believe anything that this government tells us. 100,000 daily tests has been hit twice and only by counting tests that were "in the post" and not with tests that have actually been done As I said, VERY easily pleased I doubt anyone is 'pleased'. Far from it. I can see the lefty pub bores were busy yesterday but I'll reply to you as one of the more reasonable posters. Had a busy day gardening, entertaining the offspring and a good guitar sesh (determined to nail that run in the Gary Moore 'Out In The Fields') solo ). So, plenty of wailing over the numbers. Yes, each country records differently but let's not the facts ruin a good rant, eh? Have any of you actually read the BMA instructions for completing an MCCD during the CV19 outbreak? No? Have you bothered looking into how other countries are recording deaths? No, because god forbid you might gain a smidgen of understanding. Christ, even the government-hating Guardian is open and honest about the unreliability of the stats. There are numerous considerations. For example, in March 14% of UK death certificates mentioning “Covid-19” did not list the disease itself as the underlying cause of death, but were counted anyway. Then we need to consider how underlying conditions influence the numbers. For example, deaths from coronary heart disease (4-5,000ish deaths per month on average) were down 26% in March - so it seems certain that CV19 has either killed some who would have died of CHD in March, or that some died of CHD but their deaths were being incorrectly attributed to CV19. The fact is, not everyone who died WITH it, died OF it, but in the UK their deaths are generally being counted anyway. In addition, even if CV19 hasn't been confirmed via a test, it is 'satisfactory' to 'apply clinical judgement' and enter CV19 on the death certificate if the patient had suspected symptoms, whether it actually killed them or not. Furthermore, for deaths attributed to CV19 - with or without test - a coroner is not required. A GP in a care home can include CV19 on the death certificate even if the patient had been on death's door with something else for weeks, simply because they may have had a fever. In summary - and from anecdotal personal experience - CV19 features on many, many death certificates even where it wasn't the cause of death. Taking all this into account, we seem to be counting too many deaths. Belgium has a similar approach - they record all 'suspected' deaths in care homes whether confirmed or not. Of Belgium’s registered deaths, 44% died in hospital (and were tested). The majority 54% died in a nursing home — and only in 7.8% of those cases were CV19 tested & confirmed as the CAUSE of death. However, over the border in Germany, where someone has tested positive with CV19 and has an underlying condition, the underlying condition is named as the cause of death, not CV19. Almost the polar opposite of Belgium. Things may have changed but only a few weeks ago France was only recording CV19 fatalities in hospitals, Spain wasn't counting unconfirmed cases in care homes, and the Netherlands only tested hospitalised patients. You simply cannot compare the numbers. And finally, although I disagree with country vs country tables - let's not forget in terms of deaths per head of population we're still below Belgium, Italy and Spain. But I'm sure you all think the above should be ignored, because it doesn't agree with the rants over the last few pages. You might read it, you might not. You might make an attempt to understand it, you might not. Either way I'm sure as hell most will disregard it, because that's the style on here. It may well end up that the UK is the worst affected in Europe. That shouldn't surprise anyone, especially as more evidence of far earlier spread comes to light (France has now confirmed a case in December). We have over 120,000 Chinese students, many of whom travelled home over the Xmas academic break, and that's before we even consider the usual leisure travel from our large Chinese populations and the enormous volume of business travel to and from China. We then had many tens of thousands travel to Northern Italy early in the year and massive other volumes of ongoing international travel. England is also one of the most densely populated countries in Europe with one of the biggest cities. In short, it was already here in probably higher volume than most other European countries, and was rapidly spreading with a high R number. Contact tracing was therefore overwhelmed very quickly. Far too quickly as it happens - ideally we would have had more capacity but contact tracing is a very high volume job. Testing has been a huge issue, and even now we have approved and higher quality tests there are massive questions over reliability. Many of the early tests were rejected for precisely this reason. We easily forget this is a new virus, with many unanswered questions. The tests barely existed a few months ago and we (unlike other nations such as Germany) don't have a wide network of private laboratories capable of quickly ramping up. And then we were a few days to a week too late to go into lockdown - which, despite no change in instruction seems to have relaxed massively in the last week or two. B&Q is open (wtf?), takeaways, drive-throughs and many other locations are opening up, traffic has increased. Parks are full on sunny days. Business after business is gleefully announcing their return on social media. I know of several businesses opening up as of Monday, and construction firms have barely stopped anyway. Some arrogant ****s sneak out to meet skanky barmaids. All of this furthers the spread. This isn't going away any time soon.

wrencat1873 wrote: You sir, have a sick sense of humour. The country with the most time to prepare for the pandemic, has the highest death toll in Europe. You are VERY easily pleased - Boris & co have made a right cock of this so far and the UK is starting to race away with the title of worst response to the covid19 pandemic. I'm just surprised that you believe anything that this government tells us. 100,000 daily tests has been hit twice and only by counting tests that were "in the post" and not with tests that have actually been done As I said, VERY easily pleased I doubt anyone is 'pleased'. Far from it. I can see the lefty pub bores were busy yesterday but I'll reply to you as one of the more reasonable posters. Had a busy day gardening, entertaining the offspring and a good guitar sesh (determined to nail that run in the Gary Moore 'Out In The Fields') solo ). So, plenty of wailing over the numbers. Yes, each country records differently but let's not the facts ruin a good rant, eh? Have any of you actually read the BMA instructions for completing an MCCD during the CV19 outbreak? No? Have you bothered looking into how other countries are recording deaths? No, because god forbid you might gain a smidgen of understanding. Christ, even the government-hating Guardian is open and honest about the unreliability of the stats. There are numerous considerations. For example, in March 14% of UK death certificates mentioning “Covid-19” did not list the disease itself as the underlying cause of death, but were counted anyway. Then we need to consider how underlying conditions influence the numbers. For example, deaths from coronary heart disease (4-5,000ish deaths per month on average) were down 26% in March - so it seems certain that CV19 has either killed some who would have died of CHD in March, or that some died of CHD but their deaths were being incorrectly attributed to CV19. The fact is, not everyone who died WITH it, died OF it, but in the UK their deaths are generally being counted anyway. In addition, even if CV19 hasn't been confirmed via a test, it is 'satisfactory' to 'apply clinical judgement' and enter CV19 on the death certificate if the patient had suspected symptoms, whether it actually killed them or not. Furthermore, for deaths attributed to CV19 - with or without test - a coroner is not required. A GP in a care home can include CV19 on the death certificate even if the patient had been on death's door with something else for weeks, simply because they may have had a fever. In summary - and from anecdotal personal experience - CV19 features on many, many death certificates even where it wasn't the cause of death. Taking all this into account, we seem to be counting too many deaths. Belgium has a similar approach - they record all 'suspected' deaths in care homes whether confirmed or not. Of Belgium’s registered deaths, 44% died in hospital (and were tested). The majority 54% died in a nursing home — and only in 7.8% of those cases were CV19 tested & confirmed as the CAUSE of death. However, over the border in Germany, where someone has tested positive with CV19 and has an underlying condition, the underlying condition is named as the cause of death, not CV19. Almost the polar opposite of Belgium. Things may have changed but only a few weeks ago France was only recording CV19 fatalities in hospitals, Spain wasn't counting unconfirmed cases in care homes, and the Netherlands only tested hospitalised patients. You simply cannot compare the numbers. And finally, although I disagree with country vs country tables - let's not forget in terms of deaths per head of population we're still below Belgium, Italy and Spain. But I'm sure you all think the above should be ignored, because it doesn't agree with the rants over the last few pages. You might read it, you might not. You might make an attempt to understand it, you might not. Either way I'm sure as hell most will disregard it, because that's the style on here. It may well end up that the UK is the worst affected in Europe. That shouldn't surprise anyone, especially as more evidence of far earlier spread comes to light (France has now confirmed a case in December). We have over 120,000 Chinese students, many of whom travelled home over the Xmas academic break, and that's before we even consider the usual leisure travel from our large Chinese populations and the enormous volume of business travel to and from China. We then had many tens of thousands travel to Northern Italy early in the year and massive other volumes of ongoing international travel. England is also one of the most densely populated countries in Europe with one of the biggest cities. In short, it was already here in probably higher volume than most other European countries, and was rapidly spreading with a high R number. Contact tracing was therefore overwhelmed very quickly. Far too quickly as it happens - ideally we would have had more capacity but contact tracing is a very high volume job. Testing has been a huge issue, and even now we have approved and higher quality tests there are massive questions over reliability. Many of the early tests were rejected for precisely this reason. We easily forget this is a new virus, with many unanswered questions. The tests barely existed a few months ago and we (unlike other nations such as Germany) don't have a wide network of private laboratories capable of quickly ramping up. And then we were a few days to a week too late to go into lockdown - which, despite no change in instruction seems to have relaxed massively in the last week or two. B&Q is open (wtf?), takeaways, drive-throughs and many other locations are opening up, traffic has increased. Parks are full on sunny days. Business after business is gleefully announcing their return on social media. I know of several businesses opening up as of Monday, and construction firms have barely stopped anyway. Some arrogant ****s sneak out to meet skanky barmaids. All of this furthers the spread. This isn't going away any time soon.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Thu May 07, 2020 1:48 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

How can you be talking to them during lockdown - so how do really know what they think - most want to make the most of what life they have left - stuck in isolation for months on end is no quality of life it is just an existence. Do you think if someone said to them right you can either stay in isolation or you can get back out on the bowling green with all the risks you wouldn't be able to get on the bowling green.

We may never find a vaccine for this - look at HIV - no vaccine yet. So how long do you lock them down - indefinitely?

I'll tell you how I know, I talk to them (On the phone) for example
A few of them even have WhatsApp and they are in the groups I'm in

I also cut the bowling green twice a week - and as people are walking past either on their daily walks or if they are fully isolating I here messages from their pals etc.

"Wanting" to go out is no excuse for actually going out
I "Want" to go out, I also don't want to be killed, kill anyone else (Only realised yesterday my wife is classed as vulnerable due to a previous Lung illness) or pass it on to anyone else who in turn could pass it onto one of their loved ones who may be seriously ill or die.

And you have the audacity to ask me how I know what they think - Yet your comeback is "most want to make the most of what life they have left - stuck in isolation for months on end is no quality of life it is just an existence" which is worse than anecdotal!!

I'll tell you what I'll do if you want?
There's 11/12 players who regularly turn up for Monday night Bowling - (Obviously the opposing team would bring similar numbers)
I'll contact them ALL if you want - I'll ask them - Do you want to play Monday without any assurances that their friends/other teams players have been tested or clear etc.
I can tell you now for a Fact I've spoke to 5/6 of them or so and they wouldn't in a million years go out currently due to their personal circumstances (1x 55 yr old ish is the carer for his 80+ year old mother for example).

You don't want to listen to what others "Think or say" but quite Happy to tell us what "Most" want.
What about all the people that have to be out of lockdown so that these people can come out of their "Purgatory" and service their life? The bus drivers/Shop staff/Pub owners etc. etc. Are they All still willing to risk it?

Recent Poll - Most people are still wary of lifting restrictions
Personally - It shouldn't matter what they want, it should be what's best

Anyway - Did you watch Bojo's Superman Speech? The one I mentioned a week or so ago - Ask him how we are going to meet this head on, step up to the challenge, be like Superman and take advantage of this situation.
Ask him if he still feels it's ok to keep shaking hands, meeting people and not social distancing after his experiences.

Just like Trump they were arrogant to the situation and the risks associated - It won't affect us, were too good/educated/advanced a country for it to affect us!
Result - Well to "Most" people, Not Great (See what I did there)
To some who may not have to attended numerous funerals (I went to one yesterday and it's my cousins, the paramedics tomorrow - he would have been 49 yesterday) this is just an inconvenience and a nuisance stopping us being Financially Happy. I'm sorry to say I do agree a bit with this, but end of the day we would have done more earlier, we should be doing more now IMO and we need to do more in the future. And just because were losing out more financially now should it mean we repeat the mistakes of the past.

PS
The funeral I went to yesterday was a family friend (My Mother & Father in law's best friend)
We dropped a card off last week - then rang her from the car - Her words :- "The silly Bugger got what he deserved, He said this won't stop him going out doing stuff etc.".
Well I'll tell you what, his last 10 days were AWFUL - He was that ill they couldn't even intubate him

Bet he's glad he "Carried on like Superman".

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Thu May 07, 2020 2:16 pm  

wire-quin wrote:

Welcome back to March. Do you understand the R rate and where we are today. It certainly isn't R x 2.

It will be after this weekend.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Thu May 07, 2020 3:19 pm  

What about PPE they announced that a large supply was on its way from Turkey before they had even ordered it and now we find out it is not to standard and will not be used. The government agency then obtained a supply of face masks from France which the agency incorrectly labelled for virus use and sent them out. The error was later discovered and they had to quickly withdraw the masks despite them being in use.
The government are clearly doing a wonderful job and I can’t understand why the rest of the world excluding the USA think we are a joke dangerously lead by a baffoon.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Thu May 07, 2020 3:23 pm  

Percy Greenfingers rocking away with Lynott whilst playing ring-a-ring-a-roses with the kids.
Way to go Flashers.