Re: NASA and Space general conspiracy discussions : Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:37 am  

Mugwump wrote:

I don't recall ever claiming to be an angel. Far from it. I mean, I don't usually go out of my way to insult people. But if you are simply begging to be abused I feel obliged to live up to my usual high-standards.

Have I EVER given you the slightest impression that I attach ANY significance to your "estimation"?

If you wish to strap yourself into FA's understanding of light and sound that's your business. But for your own sake - carry a spare parachute for when his doesn't open.

I have to tell you that you went up a notch in reply to my provocation.
Brownie points there.
Measured, it suits you (no tailoring pun intended)... carry on in that vein.
We may become buddies yet!

Re: NASA and Space general conspiracy discussions : Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:18 am  

Well, at least you have a sense of humour. Which is more than can be said of most these days ...

Re: NASA and Space general conspiracy discussions : Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:28 am  

Mugwump wrote:

Stop flattering yourself.

So. Yes.

You don't see the RELEVANCE of knowing how far away the light source is when it effectively settles the question of whether this photograph is bogus or not - which is the VERY THING we are debating?

Your debating style is rubbish. I reject your claim that your cryptic question "settles everything", and unless you are able to articulate a point from your strange cryptic question style, I have no clue what your point is. I suspect neither do you. Oh, and your trademark triple lol smileys comes over a bit hysterical.

Re: NASA and Space general conspiracy discussions : Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:10 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Your debating style is rubbish. I reject your claim that your cryptic question "settles everything", and unless you are able to articulate a point from your strange cryptic question style, I have no clue what your point is. I suspect neither do you. Oh, and your trademark triple lol smileys comes over a bit hysterical.

It was about as cryptic as a punch in the face. I couldn't make the point any more obvious without GIVING you the answer on a plate (thus freeing you of any obligation to think).

You can reject the fact that by the time light has traveled 150 million kilometers any falloff in intensity SHOULD be so minuscule it cannot be detected by the human eye anywhere on the moon. But bear in mind that the night sky is what it is precisely because of this phenomenon.

Re: NASA and Space general conspiracy discussions : Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:07 am  

Mugwump wrote:

It was about as cryptic as a punch in the face. I couldn't make the point any more obvious without GIVING you the answer on a plate (thus freeing you of any obligation to think).

You can reject the fact that by the time light has traveled 150 million kilometers any falloff in intensity SHOULD be so minuscule it cannot be detected by the human eye anywhere on the moon. But bear in mind that the night sky is what it is precisely because of this phenomenon.

What? The night sky "is what it is" because of what? You're making no sense!

As for the rest - sorry, riddles just don't cut it. If you could reveal to the world what fall off in intensity on the images you are presumably talking about, and how this supports whatever point it is you want to make, then I could indeed think about it. Humour me - make your actual point. You know you want to.

Mugwump wrote:

If you wish to strap yourself into FA's understanding of light and sound that's your business. But for your own sake - carry a spare parachute for when his doesn't open

But then you're the one who said there was air on the moon, so you're perhaps not the go-to man for parachute advice.

Re: NASA and Space general conspiracy discussions : Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:11 am  

A classic case of saying 'you're missing the point' when what should be said is 'perhaps I am not explaining myself enough?'
Give the chap a chance Mugwump.
You know what you are trying to say, but FA doesn't.
Neither do I at the moment.
Be specific and deal in particulars would be my advice ...
Not that you'd want it of course.

Re: NASA and Space general conspiracy discussions : Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:22 pm  

Go on then TELL US what criteria would make you first DOUBT the Apollo story and then DENY it? And don't say something daft like "NASA admits it was all a hoax" because I think you are smart enough to realise that if NASA really did fake those landings they aren't likely to own up to it.

Facts.

Having reliable and tested evidence that doesn't fall down. Pretty simple really. All that Moon truthers have is ideas and assumptions. They apply psuedo-scientific thinking to various arguments while ignoring counter-arguments that provide evidence against their own ideas. Like I said before, truthers don't have a particular interest in the actual truth, just their version of it. It doesn't help that your fellow truthers have a varied scale of wild ideas rather than a focused point.

Re: NASA and Space general conspiracy discussions : Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:34 pm  

A sad aspect of this stupid, cynical and baseless attack on NASA over the moon landings is the sweeping aside of the geuine efforts of a team of thousands of workers.
The achievenent was stupendous. A moment never to be forgotten in the ascent of man.
Monumental!
One of THE greatest moments of all time and in my lifetime. Lucky me and lucky us!
Hang your heads in shame you lamebrains who denigrate that effort.
You don't deserve it!

.

Re: NASA and Space general conspiracy discussions : Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:43 pm  

I don't know what more you want me to say which isn't saying what I've already said countless times.

Take a regular torch. It's not the sun. But it doesn't need to be because light behaves in exactly the same fashion (with one or two exceptions which really only apply in theoretical environments).

The Inverse Square Law states that light intensity is inversely proportional to the square of the distance to the source. Roughly translated this means that you lose the MOST of your light CLOSEST to where it originates and as the distance increases this falloff diminishes toward zero at an ever diminishing rate without ever reaching zero.



In the illustration above HALF of the total output will be lost in the first few inches. Double the distance and it is reduced to a quarter and so on etc. But the important point in relation to this discussion is what's taking place at the other end of the scale. The reason we see starlight across vast distances is because even though its intensity is ALWAYS falling - the further light travels from the source the longer it takes to do so. Plug the numbers into any calculator and you can immediately verify this.

If the Apollo photographs are genuine then the single light source illuminating the subject (the sun) is 150 million km away. At that distance most of its intensity has been diluted and the rate of falloff drops to negligible levels. Sure, it's still higher than what it would be if we were viewing the sun from the other side of the galaxy. But we aren't seeing the kind of colossal bites taken out of luminosity that we witnessed early on.

Consequently we should see no appreciable difference in the luminosity of any part of the moon exposed to direct sunlight and not interfered with by shadow. Now, there are some complicating factors relating to a variety of issues which can result in the distant background looking slightly duller and/or desaturated (especially on the earth where this question is further complicated by our atmosphere which scatters light and can function as an enormous softbox).

But if you are looking at an Apollo photograph in which there are significant differences in luminosity that would require you to alter your camera's shutter speed and/or f/stop to correctly expose each area - and these discrepancies cannot be explained by the sun's light being obscured by some object - it has either been tampered with in post-production or it was photographed in a studio environment.

The reason I say the latter is because we ALREADY KNOW that light intensity can fall-off in pretty dramatic fashion - provided the source of light is CLOSE TO the subject (compare position 1 to position 4 in the illustration).

I'm clueless as to how pointing out this simple and obvious truth has morphed into wild accusations about the moon being a hologram and such. This argument is strictly confined to the validity of the Apollo photographs - although I do think it has wider implications insofar as NASA's trustworthiness is concerned.

Take a look at the original NASA stock. We see this issue cropping up time and time again (notice I DO NOT say ALL). Just as we see other problems such as harshly backlit subjects which - despite the astronauts carrying NO SECONDARY SOURCES OF ILLUMINATION - are perfectly illuminated from the front.

Bear in mind that in order to achieve the above you have to supply CLOSE TO the same amount of light in the opposite direction in order bring the subject within the tonal range of the camera. Which means you either have to set up a portable flash-unit to fill in the shadow areas - or (maybe) use a very efficient reflector (neither of which the astronauts carried). Without it the subject MUST BE reduced to a pitch-black silhouette. There's simply no room for debate on this question.

Don't believe me? Try it yourself. It isn't a difficult experiment to set up.

This is why I draw the distinction between natural light and theatrical (make-believe) light.

Now, if you don't mind I'm calling it quits on repeating the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Quite frankly, I'm bored rigid with the whole issue and there's only so much stupidity I can take.

I mean, if you have any genuine interest in this question you'll spend five minutes setting up two or three simple experiments which will tell you more about photography and light than NASA seems willing to divulge. It really is THAT SIMPLE.

Re: NASA and Space general conspiracy discussions : Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:11 pm  

TheButcher wrote:

Facts.

That's a word - not an answer. Besides, I know plenty of facts which aren't. Can we be sure you can tell the difference? I have my doubts.

I should add that you really don't help your case by CONSTANTLY injecting every post with tedious terms such as "Moon Truthers" which are solely meant to evoke an emotional reaction in the reader and draw a line under any further thought.

I mean, it might draw a few cheers from the peanut gallery. But it's a very poor substitute for contributing something of value to the discussion.

So, once again: what PRECISELY would it take for you to first DOUBT and then DENY the Apollo program?