Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Sun May 03, 2020 12:59 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

I'm struggling to get my head around the stats!

Back when Bojo announced the lock-down there were 967 new daily cases, now six long weeks on, we're bumping along around 4,000 new cases each day.

I presume if he hadn't implemented the various measures the daily figure would have spiraled into the twenties, maybe thirty thousand a day. However, the fact is there are still a shedload of new cases each day.

My question is, if everyone is abiding to the rules, how come there's 4,000 new cases every single day?

It's unfortunate but some people are too thick, selfish or arrogant and a good swathe too lacking in empathy, mostly Tory voters of course

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon May 04, 2020 10:21 am  

Ovavoo wrote:

It's unfortunate but some people are too thick, selfish or arrogant and a good swathe too lacking in empathy

Indeed, and some of the thickest, most selfish and most arrogant even brag about it, on RLFANS forums for example, and damn the consequences to the rest of us.

Ignorance and arrogance in equal measure.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon May 04, 2020 12:03 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Absolute rubbish.

Nothing to do with following WHO and scientific recommendations, of course? Oh no. Nothing to do with that.

Look, it's always seemed logical to me that although a crappy, ill-fitting mask will do next to nothing to prevent you catching an airborne virus, it could help prevent an infected person spread it by catching some of the infected droplets in their breath/sneezes/coughs. However, many scientific studies and WHO advice on this have been very clear from day one: unless FFP2/3 and professionally fitted, masks are mostly useless and therefore not required outside a medical/care environment. And that's before we even consider the lack of eye protection...

But - fast forward to the last few weeks and WHO advice has been gradually shifting based on a couple of studies in Hong Kong and other places, and if we're hoping to relax the lockdown soon it makes sense we take additional measures alongside social distancing, hand-washing etc.

And although I don't believe it was a factor bearing in mind face mask recommendations were already in place, so what if NHS supplies were prioritised? Do you not accept they are far more important in a medical or care setting? Or that if the government had recommended face masks, 67 million Brits all rushing out to buy all the masks they can find might have had pretty severely detrimental affect on supplies - which were already stretched beyond belief? Or in your brain is everything simply "Bojo and da Tories dun bad".

At the same time, you talk about ineptitude and complain incessantly of how the government/NHS struggled to maintain levels of PPE at times - well, so did you. Are you therefore inept? Shall we all slag you off in similar fashion? Multiply your struggles a million-fold and perhaps you'll get some idea of the challenges faced by NHS procurement, governments worldwide and probably 99% of general hospitals, doctor's surgeries and care homes on the planet. At least when you get hold of PPE you don't have 58,000 locations all demanding it. I think what I'm trying to say is, wind yer neck in: you, the NHS and the government are all doing the very best you can, and doing a grand job, in hugely challenging conditions.

Not that ignoramuses such as WIZEB would understand there's a lockdown in place. The law and doing his bit to help prevent the spread of the pandemic doesn't apply to him apparently.

Yes please do lecture me on the correct use and efficacy of PPE; the arrogance of the Tory fanboy, who "follows the science" - provided that science is advantageous to whatever position he's taking today. When there is divergence of course, either the science was wrong, or we're sick of experts. All from a position of sitting comfortably at home on furlough, obtaining expert knowledge from Google.

With regards to ineptitude - as I've explained to Sal Paradise at least 4 times; no, the fact that the care sector didn't stockpile PPE was not an indication of ineptitude - because we weren't privy to the findings of Operation Cygnus, which made that recommendation - the Govt were, and *chose* not to. Had they done so, they could have made it available (at market rates, before Sal trots out his other regular attack line about private orgs wanting freebies.) So all of the well publicised struggles of obtaining PPE now - which is entirely understandable when the whole world wants it - could have been mitigated in part by implementing the recommendations of their own exercise.

On that basis, I won't wind my neck in ta - I'll carry on highlighting all the ways that the Govt has failed the care sector - because unlike many of the apologistas, I actually know what I'm talking about; my network consists of MD's and CEO's of all the main players in the sector, and I can confidently assure you that I am not a lone voice - and most of these people are natural Tories. See it's ok to be broadly in support of a party, but be critical of some of their actions when the situation warrants - which this one clearly does.

Having said - Boris nearly died, whilst remaining chipper and in charge at all times - so I wouldn't want to be too hard on them; having one of the worst excess mortality rates is probably just a counting error.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon May 04, 2020 1:01 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Yes please do lecture me on the correct use and efficacy of PPE; the arrogance of the Tory fanboy, who "follows the science" - provided that science is advantageous to whatever position he's taking today. When there is divergence of course, either the science was wrong, or we're sick of experts. All from a position of sitting comfortably at home on furlough, obtaining expert knowledge from Google.

With regards to ineptitude - as I've explained to Sal Paradise at least 4 times; no, the fact that the care sector didn't stockpile PPE was not an indication of ineptitude - because we weren't privy to the findings of Operation Cygnus, which made that recommendation - the Govt were, and *chose* not to. Had they done so, they could have made it available (at market rates, before Sal trots out his other regular attack line about private orgs wanting freebies.) So all of the well publicised struggles of obtaining PPE now - which is entirely understandable when the whole world wants it - could have been mitigated in part by implementing the recommendations of their own exercise.

On that basis, I won't wind my neck in ta - I'll carry on highlighting all the ways that the Govt has failed the care sector - because unlike many of the apologistas, I actually know what I'm talking about; my network consists of MD's and CEO's of all the main players in the sector, and I can confidently assure you that I am not a lone voice - and most of these people are natural Tories. See it's ok to be broadly in support of a party, but be critical of some of their actions when the situation warrants - which this one clearly does.

Having said - Boris nearly died, whilst remaining chipper and in charge at all times - so I wouldn't want to be too hard on them; having one of the worst excess mortality rates is probably just a counting error.

I don't think anyone is suggesting there aren't struggles in the social care sector - with an ageing population this situation only gets worse. Unless we are prepared to pump more money in then there is only one logical outcome - more stress on the system.

We can talk around the houses about PPE - the finding of Cygnus were well know - Bill Gates had published many times in respect of a pandemic being the next big interference to humans. So you can't blame the government for doing exactly what you did is invest the cash where it delivers the maximum returns - in your case better care homes in the government's case more operations.

Has this government made a mess of this - yes in my view it could have done things a lot differently - hindsight is a great thing.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon May 04, 2020 1:03 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Yes please do lecture me on the correct use and efficacy of PPE; the arrogance of the Tory fanboy, who "follows the science" - provided that science is advantageous to whatever position he's taking today. When there is divergence of course, either the science was wrong, or we're sick of experts. All from a position of sitting comfortably at home on furlough, obtaining expert knowledge from Google.

With regards to ineptitude - as I've explained to Sal Paradise at least 4 times; no, the fact that the care sector didn't stockpile PPE was not an indication of ineptitude - because we weren't privy to the findings of Operation Cygnus, which made that recommendation - the Govt were, and *chose* not to. Had they done so, they could have made it available (at market rates, before Sal trots out his other regular attack line about private orgs wanting freebies.) So all of the well publicised struggles of obtaining PPE now - which is entirely understandable when the whole world wants it - could have been mitigated in part by implementing the recommendations of their own exercise.

On that basis, I won't wind my neck in ta - I'll carry on highlighting all the ways that the Govt has failed the care sector - because unlike many of the apologistas, I actually know what I'm talking about; my network consists of MD's and CEO's of all the main players in the sector, and I can confidently assure you that I am not a lone voice - and most of these people are natural Tories. See it's ok to be broadly in support of a party, but be critical of some of their actions when the situation warrants - which this one clearly does.

Having said - Boris nearly died, whilst remaining chipper and in charge at all times - so I wouldn't want to be too hard on them; having one of the worst excess mortality rates is probably just a counting error.

Oh do give it a rest. It's not 'my' science, it's 'the' science. And you've completely ignored it all as usual in favour of another rant and ignored every question as usual. You know for a fact the WHO and the majority of scientists have said all along face masks are almost useless in the general population, but there can be very small benefits to prevent spread if someone is infected. There are countless studies to back this up. Social distancing is felt to be far more effective as a single measure.

However, and as I said, I've always been of the view that a small benefit is worth it alongside social distancing - and I didn't personally agree with the WHO, science and consequently the government's advice. But that advice has shifted slowly over the last few months as again, I'm sure you well know. So, not a fanboy but I understood why the advice stood as it did.

So no-one acted on Operation Cygnus? Did you act on Operation Winter Willow in 2007, which specifically found a surge in demand on face masks (and antivirals/antibiotics) would be an issue? Where's your 13 year-old stockpile? Not so rosy up on that high horse anymore, is it.

That aside, I presume had you seen the findings of Cygnus 4 years ago you would have immediately gone out and procured millions of items and stuck them in a warehouse? Spent millions of pounds on a stockpile of masks, gloves, gowns, goggles and face shields that would all require replenishing over time as items degraded? No you wouldn't, and don't even pretend you would. You probably wouldn't have even been given permission. I have no idea who you work for but I can't think of many CEOs/boards/trustees who would sign that off over more pressing and immediate concerns.

And I'm sure you'd have planned and equipped for this novel coronavirus, and not an H2N2-type flu pandemic as was the scope of Cygnus. You're dead good, you.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon May 04, 2020 1:13 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Yes please do lecture me on the correct use and efficacy of PPE; the arrogance of the Tory fanboy, who "follows the science" - provided that science is advantageous to whatever position he's taking today. When there is divergence of course, either the science was wrong, or we're sick of experts. All from a position of sitting comfortably at home on furlough, obtaining expert knowledge from Google.

With regards to ineptitude - as I've explained to Sal Paradise at least 4 times; no, the fact that the care sector didn't stockpile PPE was not an indication of ineptitude - because we weren't privy to the findings of Operation Cygnus, which made that recommendation - the Govt were, and *chose* not to. Had they done so, they could have made it available (at market rates, before Sal trots out his other regular attack line about private orgs wanting freebies.) So all of the well publicised struggles of obtaining PPE now - which is entirely understandable when the whole world wants it - could have been mitigated in part by implementing the recommendations of their own exercise.

On that basis, I won't wind my neck in ta - I'll carry on highlighting all the ways that the Govt has failed the care sector - because unlike many of the apologistas, I actually know what I'm talking about; my network consists of MD's and CEO's of all the main players in the sector, and I can confidently assure you that I am not a lone voice - and most of these people are natural Tories. See it's ok to be broadly in support of a party, but be critical of some of their actions when the situation warrants - which this one clearly does.

Having said - Boris nearly died, whilst remaining chipper and in charge at all times - so I wouldn't want to be too hard on them; having one of the worst excess mortality rates is probably just a counting error.

Bloody well put sir

It's quite increddible that so many people believe that Boris has suddenly become open and honest

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon May 04, 2020 5:02 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Oh do give it a rest. It's not 'my' science, it's 'the' science. And you've completely ignored it all as usual in favour of another rant and ignored every question as usual. You know for a fact the WHO and the majority of scientists have said all along face masks are almost useless in the general population, but there can be very small benefits to prevent spread if someone is infected. There are countless studies to back this up. Social distancing is felt to be far more effective as a single measure.

However, and as I said, I've always been of the view that a small benefit is worth it alongside social distancing - and I didn't personally agree with the WHO, science and consequently the government's advice. But that advice has shifted slowly over the last few months as again, I'm sure you well know. So, not a fanboy but I understood why the advice stood as it did.

So no-one acted on Operation Cygnus? Did you act on Operation Winter Willow in 2007, which specifically found a surge in demand on face masks (and antivirals/antibiotics) would be an issue? Where's your 13 year-old stockpile? Not so rosy up on that high horse anymore, is it.

That aside, I presume had you seen the findings of Cygnus 4 years ago you would have immediately gone out and procured millions of items and stuck them in a warehouse? Spent millions of pounds on a stockpile of masks, gloves, gowns, goggles and face shields that would all require replenishing over time as items degraded? No you wouldn't, and don't even pretend you would. You probably wouldn't have even been given permission. I have no idea who you work for but I can't think of many CEOs/boards/trustees who would sign that off over more pressing and immediate concerns.

And I'm sure you'd have planned and equipped for this novel coronavirus, and not an H2N2-type flu pandemic as was the scope of Cygnus. You're dead good, you.

Of course he didn't he just wants to blame anyone but himself - he knows why the government didn't buy all that PPE for the very same reason his company didn't he just doesn't want to admit it - tough when the surface of the River Aire isn't quite so sturdy anymore.

On facemasks they have no taken to suggesting the only really benefit is to someone's personal confidence - you couldn't make it up!!

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Tue May 05, 2020 8:04 am  

Cronus wrote:

Oh do give it a rest. blah blah

And here we have it - the true face of the Thursday night clapper, safe from furlough, showing faux appreciation for those on the front line; until actually faced with one of those people, who's first-hand experience doesn't tally with the party line - then he reverts to type - sneering, insulting and cancelling out any dissenting viewpoint.

Pathetic - but not at all surprising.

Meanwhile, the servile media drool about an 'NHS App' that will save us from lockdown; failing to mention that it's not in any way, shape or form an NHS App - it was in fact developed (without a competitive tender) by Dominic Cummings' Vote Leave cronies - a company called Faculty, which since helping Vote Leave to break electoral law, has won 7 government contracts in 18 months. Go figure.

We're being had - and this kind of servile fanboy bootlicking, that brooks no criticism of the ruling party, is the enabling force.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Tue May 05, 2020 9:19 am  

bren2k wrote:

We're being had - and this kind of servile fanboy bootlicking, that brooks no criticism of the ruling party, is the enabling force.

Can't remember where I read this, but it always springs to mind whenever I see Tory apologists in action...

The Conservative Party is the party of the English establishment. It is, at heart, an organisation with Imperial leanings and one that believes absolutely in distinction through class. They (the Conservatives) believe they were born to rule and a lack of intellect or talent is never to be considered a barrier to fulfilling that god given right. They will always play the long game, a concession given today will be clawed back at the earliest opportunity (no matter how long that may be). Many people think they are Conservatives but they are not ... most are merely Conservative enablers. To be a true Conservative ... you will have connections through birth, school, regiment or wealth that automatically makes you one. A true Conservative's only loyalty is to other true Conservatives.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Tue May 05, 2020 10:27 am  

King Street Cat wrote:

Can't remember where I read this, but it always springs to mind whenever I see Tory apologists in action...

The Conservative Party is the party of the English establishment. It is, at heart, an organisation with Imperial leanings and one that believes absolutely in distinction through class. They (the Conservatives) believe they were born to rule and a lack of intellect or talent is never to be considered a barrier to fulfilling that god given right. They will always play the long game, a concession given today will be clawed back at the earliest opportunity (no matter how long that may be). Many people think they are Conservatives but they are not ... most are merely Conservative enablers. To be a true Conservative ... you will have connections through birth, school, regiment or wealth that automatically makes you one. A true Conservative's only loyalty is to other true Conservatives.

Tired stale cliche, massive chip on shoulder syndrome.