Re: French Election : Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:49 pm  

Mintball wrote:

sanjunien wrote:

... parasites who come just to escape the terible conditions in their homelands

So let's get this right: someone "just" escaping "terible (sic) conditions", possibly with their family, is a "parasite".

is it being clever to pick up on my spelling mistakes ? hope it makes you feel superior to a french peasant ?

yeh sorry,yes - sponging off another countries system does make them a parasite especially when they make no effort to help themselves IMO

Re: French Election : Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:08 pm  

sanjunien wrote:

yeh sorry,yes - sponging off another countries system does make them a parasite especially when they make no effort to help themselves IMO

I am delighted to know that you would stay - and keep your family with you - in dreadful conditions if you could not guarantee walking into a job elsewhere.

It's good to know that the milk of human kindness is not a thing of the past and has not been curdled by sensationalistic media coverage.

After all, nobody would leave the sort of "terrible conditions" with any intent other than to 'sponge' for ever, would they?

And "no effort to help themselves": what does this mean? They should set up an IT company back in those "terrible conditions" that they were enough of a "parasite" to want to leave? Or they only arrive in a new country with no intention of working but of 'sponging'?

In which case, I look forward to your evidence that all those who arrive in any country, escaping what you yourself have described here as "terrible conditions", and who require help initially, do so with the intent of 'sponging' for the long term and not working when they can find work.

Re: French Election : Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:46 pm  

Mintball wrote:

sanjunien wrote:

yeh sorry,yes - sponging off another countries system does make them a parasite especially when they make no effort to help themselves IMO

I am delighted to know that you would stay - and keep your family with you - in dreadful conditions if you could not guarantee walking into a job elsewhere.

It's good to know that the milk of human kindness is not a thing of the past and has not been curdled by sensationalistic media coverage.

After all, nobody would leave the sort of "terrible conditions" with any intent other than to 'sponge' for ever, would they?

And "no effort to help themselves": what does this mean? They should set up an IT company back in those "terrible conditions" that they were enough of a "parasite" to want to leave? Or they only arrive in a new country with no intention of working but of 'sponging'?

In which case, I look forward to your evidence that all those who arrive in any country, escaping what you yourself have described here as "terrible conditions", and who require help initially, do so with the intent of 'sponging' for the long term and not working when they can find work.

If I lived in 'dreadful conditions' I would do my utmost to try to improve the quality of life for me and my family and if I was desperate I would try to sponge off anyone to survive so i'm a hypocrite as well as anything else you may wish to call me.It's a case of survival and people are capapble of desperate things when faced with a desperate situation.I thank God i'm not and never have been ,in that situation.
However,I don't think I would uproot my family unless there was the smallest chance I was guaranteed work elsewhere,either in a different part of the country or in another country.

If that person had any business acumen (forming an IT company ?) then they would surely not be in the position of the kind of people we are discussing ? They would be in gainful employment in their own country or wherever they wish to work.Schenghen allows this for EU citizens I believe.

If you are talking about UK citizens coming to France then many - by many,I would say thousands over the years have tried to sponge off the french system - some are still here getting away with it but others haven't been able to beat the system or have been caught ,and punished with a fine or imprisonment or deportation back to the UK.Thousand have had to return to the UK when they realise that they cannot realise their french dream.Sad but true,usually the sign of bad planning, bad luck or just plain naiivity through watching all those ridiculous property programmes on the telly.
The same goes for people from other member states who are trying or have tried the same antics with the french system.
As I said in an aerlier posting,the average french person which includes french employers looking for unskilled or semi skilled workers are inherently rascist or xenophobic and will 95% of the time chose a french candidate for a job rather than an immigrant from another member state.That's a fact and a sad endightmment on french society,but true.The policy seems to be 'the french come first and the rest after'.The remaining 5% of employers get the immigrants by working 'on the black' - ie cheap labour;which of course doesn't exist in the UK ? IN fact obviously the influx of hundreds of thousands of EU immigrants to he UK has had no great effect on the economy ? Sounds like paradise...

How do you want me to provide 'proof' exactly ? what do you suggest I do ?

Re: French Election : Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:01 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

sanjunien wrote:

Rock God X wrote:

sanjunien wrote:

to kerb immigration from the east which is affecting the job seekers in France

sanjunien wrote:

if people want to work then great

sanjunien wrote:

I am quite entitled to my opinion

You are. You are also entitled to contradict yourself as much as you want.

May I draw your attention to the first quote above, where you clearly state that immigration is affecting job seekers in France, and that you would vote for the candidate who seeks to minimise this. You then go on to state that anyone who comes to France to work is ok by you. That's the contradiction.

quite right it is indeed a contradiction

if someone is contributing to the system and not being a burden then it's tolerable under EU regulations and I have to abide that.

And, indeed, you have further contradicted yourself by stating that most French employers will favour French candidates over others. If that is the case, how can these immigrants possibly be affecting French job seekers?

fortunately the majority of employers do take on french jobseekers before others - not a contradiction,just a fact - the 5% or so of employers who don't abide by the rules are heavily punished - the penalties for employing 'black labour' (not in the racist sense) are crippling and usually ends up with a heavy fine and imprisonment. Recent changes to the unemployment laws have made it a little easier on employers to take on staff without the heavy charges of past years.
There are more incentives for people now to become self-employed using similar schemes as the uk has had for decades.This has helped reduce the amount of illegal working practices.

Re: French Election : Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:53 pm  

sanjunien wrote:

fortunately the majority of employers do take on french jobseekers before others - not a contradiction,just a fact .

Jesus. How hard can it be? The contradiction is that you said immigrants were affecting French jobseekers, then, a post or two later, you said that most French employers favour French applicants.

If it's a 'fact' that most French employers favour French applicants, it can't also be true that immigrants are adversely affecting French jobseekers.

Re: French Election : Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:27 pm  

sanjunien wrote:

If I lived in 'dreadful conditions' I would do my utmost to try to improve the quality of life for me and my family and if I was desperate I would try to sponge off anyone to survive so i'm a hypocrite as well as anything else you may wish to call me.

I haven't called you anything.

sanjunien wrote:

... However,I don't think I would uproot my family unless there was the smallest chance I was guaranteed work elsewhere,either in a different part of the country or in another country...

So, once again: where is your evidence that a majority of those who you condemn do not come to France in exactly that hope?

sanjunien wrote:

If that person had any business acumen (forming an IT company ?) then they would surely not be in the position of the kind of people we are discussing ?

Can you imagine setting up a business (for instance) in a country riven by, say, civil war?

sanjunien wrote:

... They would be in gainful employment in their own country or wherever they wish to work.Schenghen allows this for EU citizens I believe...

There's no unemployment anywhere except France? Never mind any civil strife or other problems?

sanjunien wrote:

...How do you want me to provide 'proof' exactly ? what do you suggest I do ?

You made a sweeping statement - you've now made another one, about "thousands" of Britons arriving in France to 'sponge' off the French state. I merely asked for the evidence on which you base such sweeping statements. There must be some, surely? You must be basing these statements on something.

Re: French Election : Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:43 am  

Mintball wrote:

sanjunien wrote:

I haven't called you anything.

"may wish to call me"

So, once again: where is your evidence that a majority of those who you condemn do not come to France in exactly that hope?

the majority do come for that reason but find that the french system is a bit of a soft touch and when work isn't forthcoming they then expect me to look after them through my taxes paid etc I don't wish my hard aerned brass to be given to spongers - let's look after our own first

Can you imagine setting up a business (for instance) in a country riven by, say, civil war?

so all people in a war torn country should flee and be allowed into France,Germany ,UK or wherever ? then me and you look after them,is that what you want to do ?

There's no unemployment anywhere except France? Never mind any civil strife or other problems?

I wish....

You made a sweeping statement - you've now made another one, about "thousands" of Britons arriving in France to 'sponge' off the French state. I merely asked for the evidence on which you base such sweeping statements. There must be some, surely? You must be basing these statements on something.

Do you believe benefit fraud goes on in the uk ? - I assume you will say 'Yes of course' so then I say 'well how can you prove it ' (unless of course benefit fraud doesn't exist in the UK)
the only way to do that would be to name names which is too easy but rather dangerous for me and my family wouldn't you think ? I know dozens of people who I mix with who are cheating the system and that's only within quite a small area around us so - France is a big country so multiply my experience a few thousand times - thousands are on the fiddle
As I have said the vast majority of brits are fine but the minority,that being thousands are cheating in one form or another or expect to be looked after by the french state - you really wouldn't believe what some people try to get away with.Problem is that it gives all brits a bad reputuation
If I 'pm' you names and addresses would you be prepared to denounce these people to the UK tax authorities ?

Re: French Election : Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:57 am  

Rock God X wrote:

sanjunien wrote:

fortunately the majority of employers do take on french jobseekers before others - not a contradiction,just a fact .

Jesus. How hard can it be? The contradiction is that you said immigrants were affecting French jobseekers, then, a post or two later, you said that most French employers favour French applicants.

If it's a 'fact' that most French employers favour French applicants, it can't also be true that immigrants are adversely affecting French jobseekers.

exactly - the 5% (ok maybe 10% ) of employers who are flaunting the rules are employing 'black labour' (not in a racist sense) the vast majority of whom are from eastern europe and the UK - it's a fact - probably as they do in the UK ? or doesn't that sort of thing happen in your great country ?
This may come as a shock to you matey but there are some dishonest people about ! and you and I and other decent folk atre paying for them.

Re: French Election : Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:59 am  

sanjunien wrote:

... Do you believe benefit fraud goes on in the uk ? - I assume you will say 'Yes of course' so then I say 'well how can you prove it ' (unless of course benefit fraud doesn't exist in the UK)

It's one thing to think such – and entirely another to go around making sweeping statements about "thousands" of "spongers".

So let's try again: where is the evidence for your assertion that "thousands" of Britons go to France to 'sponge' – and, indeed, many other immigrants to the country?

sanjunien wrote:

... the only way to do that would be to name names which is too easy but rather dangerous for me and my family wouldn't you think ? I know dozens of people who I mix with who are cheating the system and that's only within quite a small area around us so - France is a big country so multiply my experience a few thousand times - thousands are on the fiddle...

You mix with some nice people, then? Perhaps you should try changing the company you keep. Perhaps you should also ...

sanjunien wrote:

... If I 'pm' you names and addresses would you be prepared to denounce these people to the UK tax authorities ?

So you're not reporting them? You whinge and whine and complain and make sweeping generalisations, but will not provide the relevant authorities, in the country where these people are allegedly 'sponging', with the details yourself? So much for your concerns!

Re: French Election : Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:05 am  

sanjunien wrote:

exactly - the 5% (ok maybe 10% ) of employers who are flaunting the rules are employing 'black labour' (not in a racist sense) the vast majority of whom are from eastern europe and the UK - it's a fact - probably as they do in the UK ? or doesn't that sort of thing happen in your great country ?
This may come as a shock to you matey but there are some dishonest people about ! and you and I and other decent folk atre paying for them.

Flaunting the rules? What on Earth are you talking about?

Workers from every country in the EU (barring Bulgaria and Romania) may work in France without restriction. So what rules are those 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 employers 'flaunting' (I think you mean flouting, by the way)? It's hardly 'black labour' (I think you mean 'black market labour') if they are legally entitled to work there, is it?

So what you're saying is that most French employers favour French applicants and between 5% and 10% (anything to back up these figures?) employ some legal workers from other EU countries. If you're ok with people coming there to work, this shouldn't bother you one bit.