Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:12 pm  

Mintball wrote:

:lol:

We have sacrificed any concept of life lived on the alter of work and buying more things.

.... and you the daughter of a man of the cloth too.

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:13 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Helped by not having a load of fundamentalist neo-liberal nutters selling them down the river.

See my link on the post immediately following yours.

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:14 pm  

Dally wrote: 1. Simply pathetic. As to moaning who puts everyone's ills down to the government / big business / Murdoch / the Murdoch Press / "casino" banks / greedy bankers/ etc etc? Never any mention of personal responsibilty. All you ever do, sunshine, is predict gloom and doom. There's a reason you've been referred to as a Chicken Licken for years. One only needs to look at the downright dumb title for this thread to see that you're a typical Mail-reading hysteric, who never actually has any positive suggestions to make. Dally wrote: 2. Yes it is. No. It. Is. Not. Except to neo-liberal fundamentalist ideologues. Dally wrote: 3/4. Companies cannot just pay more without accompanying increases in productivity. It just doesn't work. We live in a competitive world and if people pay themselves more without producing more then the business and the economy fails. We've seen the real world examples - remember the "British Disease" and more latterly the "German Disease?" See here for the German experience: http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/een ... 471_en.htm I know you struggle, but I did say that you have had the living wage explained to you before – and the business case for it, which is being increasingly recognised by, err, business. The business case involves the FACT that improved wages and conditions improve productivity. They improve retention and recruitment too, and reduce sick leave. How many times do such remarkably simple things need explaining to you? And, really, if you can't comprehend that cutting the disposable income of masses of ordinary people, in an economy that is approx 75% dependant on people having disposable income, and spending it, is negative for the whole economy, you really are a bigger dolt than I realised. The economy is failing now. We are back in recession. When this government took office, employment had stabilised and there was growth. Now which part of that do you find too complex to understand? The economy has since moved back into recession. Why? Because people are not spending – and because increasing numbers of people are being thrown out of work, thus meaning they stop paying tax, start getting benefits – and stop being able to play such an active role economically. That has a further negative knock-on effect. Which part of that do you struggle with? And on top of that, a decreasing tax intake, coupled with a rising benefits bill because of increased unemployment – adds to the deficit and does not reduce it. So unless the cost of living is reduced, most ordinary people cannot take pay cuts or pay freezes, without it having a damaging impact not only on their own lives, but on the wider economy. Christ – is this really rocket science for you?

Dally wrote: 1. Simply pathetic. As to moaning who puts everyone's ills down to the government / big business / Murdoch / the Murdoch Press / "casino" banks / greedy bankers/ etc etc? Never any mention of personal responsibilty. All you ever do, sunshine, is predict gloom and doom. There's a reason you've been referred to as a Chicken Licken for years. One only needs to look at the downright dumb title for this thread to see that you're a typical Mail-reading hysteric, who never actually has any positive suggestions to make. Dally wrote: 2. Yes it is. No. It. Is. Not. Except to neo-liberal fundamentalist ideologues. Dally wrote: 3/4. Companies cannot just pay more without accompanying increases in productivity. It just doesn't work. We live in a competitive world and if people pay themselves more without producing more then the business and the economy fails. We've seen the real world examples - remember the "British Disease" and more latterly the "German Disease?" See here for the German experience: http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/een ... 471_en.htm I know you struggle, but I did say that you have had the living wage explained to you before – and the business case for it, which is being increasingly recognised by, err, business. The business case involves the FACT that improved wages and conditions improve productivity. They improve retention and recruitment too, and reduce sick leave. How many times do such remarkably simple things need explaining to you? And, really, if you can't comprehend that cutting the disposable income of masses of ordinary people, in an economy that is approx 75% dependant on people having disposable income, and spending it, is negative for the whole economy, you really are a bigger dolt than I realised. The economy is failing now. We are back in recession. When this government took office, employment had stabilised and there was growth. Now which part of that do you find too complex to understand? The economy has since moved back into recession. Why? Because people are not spending – and because increasing numbers of people are being thrown out of work, thus meaning they stop paying tax, start getting benefits – and stop being able to play such an active role economically. That has a further negative knock-on effect. Which part of that do you struggle with? And on top of that, a decreasing tax intake, coupled with a rising benefits bill because of increased unemployment – adds to the deficit and does not reduce it. So unless the cost of living is reduced, most ordinary people cannot take pay cuts or pay freezes, without it having a damaging impact not only on their own lives, but on the wider economy. Christ – is this really rocket science for you?

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:16 pm  

Dally wrote:

See my link on the post immediately following yours.

... from a body wedded to neo-liberal ideology, which was., indeed, pretty much enshrined by Maastrict (which Margaret Thatcher signed).

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:18 pm  

Him wrote:

Then why are German wages and hourly rates higher than ours?

Could be that the cost of living is higher so the wages need to be higher? VAT is a similar level to the UK but unlike the UK food is subject to VAT etc

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:37 pm  

Mintball wrote:

All you ever do, sunshine, is predict gloom and doom. There's a reason you've been referred to as a Chicken Licken for years. One only needs to look at the downright dumb title for this thread to see that you're a typical Mail-reading hysteric, who never actually has any positive suggestions to make.

No. It. Is. Not. Except to neo-liberal fundamentalist ideologues.

I know you struggle, but I did say that you have had the living wage explained to you before – and the business case for it, which is being increasingly recognised by, err, business. The business case involves the FACT that improved wages and conditions improve productivity. They improve retention and recruitment too, and reduce sick leave. How many times do such remarkably simple things need explaining to you?

And, really, if you can't comprehend that cutting the disposable income of masses of ordinary people, in an economy that is approx 75% dependant on people having disposable income, and spending it, is negative for the whole economy, you really are a bigger dolt than I realised. The economy is failing now. We are back in recession. When this government took office, employment had stabilised and there was growth. Now which part of that do you find too complex to understand?

The economy has since moved back into recession. Why? Because people are not spending – and because increasing numbers of people are being thrown out of work, thus meaning they stop paying tax, start getting benefits – and stop being able to play such an active role economically. That has a further negative knock-on effect. Which part of that do you struggle with?

And on top of that, a decreasing tax intake, coupled with a rising benefits bill because of increased unemployment – adds to the deficit and does not reduce it.

So unless the cost of living is reduced, most ordinary people cannot take pay cuts or pay freezes, without it having a damaging impact not only on their own lives, but on the wider economy.

Christ – is this really rocket science for you?

What you simplistic socalist nonsense fails to recognise is the obvious truth that everyone's wealth is contingent on successful and competive businesses. You allow those businesses to do well and there is a bigger cake for everyone to share in wages and public services. Yes, people need to have money to spend, something indeed I have said on here in connection with unequal ditribution of wealth and income) BUT you can not just dole it out when businesses are struggling. You need to accept the hard reality that higher wages and public services come off the back of someones hard work. Think industrial revolution throgh to Victorian England through to the 1920s, where the hard labour of the masses created vast wealth that in effect we are still living off as a nation. Think current China - conditions for hundreds of millions are very bad indeed but they are in the process of building wealth that may last them for generations and will probably pave the way for greater prosperity for their children. Think of all those first generation immigrants to our country and the USA who have worked long hours in hot kitchens and the like and effectively sacrificed their lives to create a more comfortable one for their children. You get nothing for nothing and nor should you.

Contrast the above sick, something for nothing, attitude from a middle class 'English' girl in her 20s on the train yesterday. A long, loud convesration in which she said, inter alia:

1. We (her and boyfriend / husband) have to be careful with money...
2. My parents are giving us £10,000 (I think towwards a property)....
3. Five minutes later, we are going to Thailand .....

Sickening!

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:35 pm  

Dally wrote:

What you simplistic socalist nonsense fails to recognise is the obvious truth that everyone's wealth is contingent on successful and competive businesses. You allow those businesses to do well and there is a bigger cake for everyone to share in wages and public services. Yes, people need to have money to spend, something indeed I have said on here in connection with unequal ditribution of wealth and income) BUT you can not just dole it out when businesses are struggling. You need to accept the hard reality that higher wages and public services come off the back of someones hard work. Think industrial revolution throgh to Victorian England through to the 1920s, where the hard labour of the masses created vast wealth that in effect we are still living off as a nation. Think current China - conditions for hundreds of millions are very bad indeed but they are in the process of building wealth that may last them for generations and will probably pave the way for greater prosperity for their children. Think of all those first generation immigrants to our country and the USA who have worked long hours in hot kitchens and the like and effectively sacrificed their lives to create a more comfortable one for their children. You get nothing for nothing and nor should you.

So getting millions of people to work long hours in dangerous conditions for low wages with no concession to their health or wellbeing is acceptable because it will generate wealth for other people for generations to come ?

Have I summarised you correctly ?




I was listening someone on the radio last night waxing lyrically about Tower Bridge in London, how iconic it is, how beautiful it looks at the moment how eccentric it is when its only specification was to bridge the Thames but how poorer the landscape would be without it - and then they tagged on the end that 24 men died during its construction.

And that was just a normal building site.

Presumably those 24 men wouldn't mind because we can benefit now ?

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:21 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

So getting millions of people to work long hours in dangerous conditions for low wages with no concession to their health or wellbeing is acceptable because it will generate wealth for other people for generations to come ?

The alternatives are that they (and their successors) remain subsistence farmers with all the stress and threat to life that involves or people like you pay much much more for your i-Phones and the like (and then moan they don't have enough disposable income).

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:58 pm  

Dally wrote:

The alternatives are that they (and their successors) remain subsistence farmers with all the stress and threat to life that involves or people like you pay much much more for your i-Phones and the like (and then moan they don't have enough disposable income).

I think your theory of economics, like a famous French brand of fizzy pop, is pschit*.


*I've declared my hand in this debate and there is no coming back from this position.

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:34 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

I think your theory of economics, like a famous French brand of fizzy pop, is pschit*.

Think what you want.