Re: Man of the People : Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:54 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I know that you find it difficult to understand but, we were discussing, Labours need for a new leader and who may be the best candidate.
However, instead of contributing ANYTHING to this subject, you decide to throw in the "you lost" boll***S.
If that'really is the best that you can muster, you really should consider leaving the discussion to the grown ups

here you go again, emoticons, having said that anyone using a Simpsons character as their avatar tells us a lot. I am glad you see yourself as a grown up, must be reassuring that at least one person sees you that way.

Re: Man of the People : Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:17 pm  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50942825 that will be 10 years of Conservative realism ahead then. I am sure these idiot Lefties believe what they say, which is even more worrying.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50942825 that will be 10 years of Conservative realism ahead then. I am sure these idiot Lefties believe what they say, which is even more worrying.

Re: Man of the People : Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:03 pm  

IR80 wrote:

here you go again, emoticons, having said that anyone using a Simpsons character as their avatar tells us a lot. I am glad you see yourself as a grown up, must be reassuring that at least one person sees you that way.

Come on we are trying to have a serious discussion here - its not a school yard

Re: Man of the People : Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:19 pm  

At least we know not to believe what Johnson says, which unfortunately many will discover for themselves over the next five years.
Please tell us you didn’t actually believe the lies Johnson told during the campaign. The first to discover how low he went will be those businesses in Northern Ireland that we all know will face increase work to move their goods. This will be followed by the people using the M4 car park when the E.U. start imposing tariffs.
I look forward to you defending each lie as they unravel.

Re: Man of the People : Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:58 am  

Scarlet Pimpernell wrote:

At least we know not to believe what Johnson says, which unfortunately many will discover for themselves over the next five years.
Please tell us you didn’t actually believe the lies Johnson told during the campaign. The first to discover how low he went will be those businesses in Northern Ireland that we all know will face increase work to move their goods. This will be followed by the people using the M4 car park when the E.U. start imposing tariffs.
I look forward to you defending each lie as they unravel.

One thing is for sure he will do more in five years than Labour would have ever done - all Labour would have done is give back the power to the unions, increase CT and the tax the rich. Then they would have realised this doesn't bring in the revenue they had hoped and guess what escalation in borrowing and everybody's personal tax would be rising. Be very careful what you wish for - unlike you most could see straight through Labour's hollow promises.

Re: Man of the People : Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:10 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

One thing is for sure he will do more in five years than Labour would have ever done - all Labour would have done is give back the power to the unions, increase CT and the tax the rich. Then they would have realised this doesn't bring in the revenue they had hoped and guess what escalation in borrowing and everybody's personal tax would be rising. Be very careful what you wish for - unlike you most could see straight through Labour's hollow promises.

100% accurate, but the lefties can't even admit defeat graciously.

Re: Man of the People : Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:59 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

One thing is for sure he will do more in five years than Labour would have ever done - all Labour would have done is give back the power to the unions, increase CT and the tax the rich. Then they would have realised this doesn't bring in the revenue they had hoped and guess what escalation in borrowing and everybody's personal tax would be rising. Be very careful what you wish for - unlike you most could see straight through Labour's hollow promises.

If you are among the better off in the UK, you are probably right.
However, for those less well off and outside the M25, do you really believe that the Tories and in particular, Boris, actually give a damn.
Fundamentally, the Tories believe in having the smallest welfare state possible, which, again, is ok as long as you never end up near the bottom of the pile.
It's interesting that you mention borrowing, which, by the Tories own admission, is going to rise over the current Parliamentary term and despite "getting Brexit done", nobody knows what the fall out will be from our exit.
Let's hope that he enjoys his political honeymoon as it's likely to go the way of all of his previous relationships.

Btw, Christmas Dinner should have been interesting round at the Johnsons, I wonder if Jo had an invite

Re: Man of the People : Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:25 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

If you are among the better off in the UK, you are probably right.
However, for those less well off and outside the M25, do you really believe that the Tories and in particular, Boris, actually give a damn.
Fundamentally, the Tories believe in having the smallest welfare state possible, which, again, is ok as long as you never end up near the bottom of the pile.
It's interesting that you mention borrowing, which, by the Tories own admission, is going to rise over the current Parliamentary term and despite "getting Brexit done", nobody knows what the fall out will be from our exit.
Let's hope that he enjoys his political honeymoon as it's likely to go the way of all of his previous relationships.

Btw, Christmas Dinner should have been interesting round at the Johnsons, I wonder if Jo had an invite

On Boris yes I do think he cares - I think Corbyn its all about a project can escalated public ownership really deliver in the 2020's - if it doesn't it doesn't matter he and McDonald will not be there and Lansman is pretty wealthy so he doesn't really care as the impact on him would have been the same as all rich people very limited. I see NMW is increasing by 6.5% not bad for someone who supposedly only cares for his rich mates.

I think the Tories believe in you taking personal ownership and only using the state as a last resort - Labour believe the state is an alternative to work - simple difference in philosophy, and I know which most in the country deem appropriate. There are people who simply cannot work through physical/mental issues and they need looking after correctly.

The Tories have said net borrowing will be below what it is now at the end of this parliament. Compared to the telephone numbers Labour were talking about they are pretty modest.

As for Boris his family is no different to everyone else's they have ups and downs - I'm that is the case in your family - certainly is in mine. We have all made mistakes in relationships that have consequences we have to live with to suggest Boris is unique is crass.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Man of the People : Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:18 pm  

IR80 wrote:

100% accurate, but the lefties can't even admit defeat graciously.

What would you view as being a gracious admission of defeat?

The candidate and party I voted for lost. I’m disappointed (without being remotely surprised), concerned and I hope the country, and indeed the world, takes a different path in the future.

Re: Man of the People : Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:10 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

On Boris yes I do think he cares - I think Corbyn its all about a project can escalated public ownership really deliver in the 2020's - if it doesn't it doesn't matter he and McDonald will not be there and Lansman is pretty wealthy so he doesn't really care as the impact on him would have been the same as all rich people very limited. I see NMW is increasing by 6.5% not bad for someone who supposedly only cares for his rich mates.

I think the Tories believe in you taking personal ownership and only using the state as a last resort - Labour believe the state is an alternative to work - simple difference in philosophy, and I know which most in the country deem appropriate. There are people who simply cannot work through physical/mental issues and they need looking after correctly.

The Tories have said net borrowing will be below what it is now at the end of this parliament. Compared to the telephone numbers Labour were talking about they are pretty modest.

That argument would have made more sense if we were in the 1980s comparing Thatcher's Conservatives with Foot/Kinnock's Labour. The current Conservative party isn't a party of small-state empowerment policies, it's become more one of embracing a kind of economic populism to direct state funding towards strategic interests for political purposes.

Hence all the talk about redirecting state spending towards projects in the north; northern universities are now going to receive more cash. The big push to be outside EU state aid rules so that they can use taxpayers' money to prop up ailing industries that struggle to adjust to costs of Brexit.

If Conservatives and the right wing media are honest, these are policies that they would have been heavily criticising if they were coming from a Labour government, just like they would if Labour were jacking up the minimum wage by 6.5%. They would be comparing that to the incomes policies of the 1970s. Remember it was also the Conservative government who introduced an energy price cap, which was an Ed Miliband idea and the Tories warned it would lead to investment flooding out of the sector.

There are a lot of spending pledges coming out of the Tories, and economic commitments (like the NMW rise) that are going to rely on some pretty strong economic growth and/or tax rises somewhere if we are going to avoid just letting borrowing rise. Remember also that during the Tory leadership contest Boris talked a lot about tax cuts which he seems to have gone quiet on, but maybe those were pledges just made to bring that particular demographic onside which he is less wedded to honouring now.

Maybe their plan will be just to increase borrowing, like Trump has done in the US, safe in the knowledge that the media won't talk about 'burdening future generations with debt' when they have a right wing government in charge so much, and the 'tea party' style activists also go strangely quiet.

But it will mean that a lot of Conservatives will have to swallow some strange compromises to their ideology in order to ride the Boris train. I suspect Conservatives are better at compromising ideology if it means accepting power than most Labour supporters are (which may be why the Conservatives have held power for much longer over the past century). When Blair was aping some Thatcher policies he took a lot of crap from Labour supporters.