Re: MANDELA DEAD : Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:43 pm  

WIZEB wrote:

Mandela wasn't great he was human.
It's all about the individual.
If I'd have been born on the Falls Road, Belfast, I'd have been killing British soldiers.
If I'd have been born in Fallujah, I'd have beeen killing American soldiers.
If anybody comes into the town I live with intent to harm people I love and know, I'll be killing them.

To me, t's simple arithmetic.

Mandela was a great man, by most people's definition. He is one of the iconic and revolutionary figures of the 20th century whose personal impact was felt across the world. What has to happen to achieve "greatness", in your definition?

The overwhelming majority of the people who lived on the Falls Road during the Troubles never killed anybody.

[DaveO]

Re: MANDELA DEAD : Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:53 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

Politicians will always get bitten on their arrses by their statements until the day they learn to say "sorry I was wrong and now I've changed my mind" realising that such an admission is not a sign of weakness, like the rest of us do as further analysis of anything brings different realisations later on.

I won't hold my breath for politicians to understand this though.

One who did change his mind was Michael Howard. He was pro capital-punishment until as Home Secretary he was in office when convictions were quashed for IRA bombings, the Birmingham-six ones I think. He had the sense to admit all the people now proved innocent would have been most likely dead had is previous pro-capital punishment view prevailed.

The fact they were convicted the way they were probably had something to do with it as it no doubt proved to him the execution of justice (no pun intended) could be far from perfect. Just because jury convicts doesn't mean they were not seriously misled.

Why he couldn't work this out before the Birmingham-six were freed I don't know as potentially topping the innocent is the most obvious flaw with capital punishment but he least he did change his view eventually.

Re: MANDELA DEAD : Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:39 pm  

Dead Man Walking wrote:

What has she said ? Must be something not very nice.

It was just Mensch being Mensch.

It all kicked off when someone reminded her of a tweet of hers in April after Thatcher's death:

Louise Mensch ‏@LouiseMensch 8 Apr

Pygmies of the left so predictably embarrassing yourselves, know this: not a one of your leaders will ever be globally mourned like her.

She then replied that she didn't consider Mandela to be "of the left"

This was swiftly followed by reminders of the ANC's political affiliations and support for trades unions etc.

More waffle from Mensch and then she went unusually quiet after someone posted a couple of photographs:

Re: MANDELA DEAD : Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:42 pm  

Dally wrote:

Be intersting to see what happens to the RSA over the net few years. Hope it does't descend into chaos.

I think you will find it is in chaos already.

A young black South African girl who worked in a clients office told me that the reason she and her family left was because of the violence, corruption and (still) the lack of prospects for a black kid from a poor background. One evil regime has been replaced by another, the difference was that the former regime was white and treat blacks appallingly, while the new is mainly blacks shafting their own.

Re: MANDELA DEAD : Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:26 pm  

Mintball wrote:

The greatness comes in subsequently deciding not to seek retribution once in power, but reconciliation. Many don't or would not.

This.......everyone expected him to retaliate,even some of his cabinet but he refused too.Didn't Clinton once say that when Mandela spoke you listenend as he had earns that right,the world has lost a great man.

Re: MANDELA DEAD : Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:47 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

what has to happen to achieve "greatness", in your definition?

Women who supported their men, liberated and politically educated themselves during a strike in 1984.
That would bear more relevance to me.
I admire Mandela also.

Re: MANDELA DEAD : Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:48 pm  

Mintball wrote:

The greatness comes in subsequently deciding not to seek retribution once in power, but reconciliation. Many don't or would not.

Like Gerry and Martin?

Re: MANDELA DEAD : Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:54 pm  

WIZEB wrote:

Like Gerry and Martin?

Oh, I have a pretty high regard for both of them, for precisely that reason.

I similarly have a high regard for John Major for taking what was an equally courageous step, politically, to move away from the idea of seeing the Northern Ireland situation as only something that could be 'won' by military force, and moving towards negotiation.

In the case of Adams and Martin, they would quite possibly have been murdered if things hadn't gone as they have. In Major's case, it could have been political suicide – there was much opinion against it – but it should be considered a very good legacy.

In the South African situation, one should also remember that de Klerk – no matter how he'd started out – made the right decisions to follow the right, very different path.

Re: MANDELA DEAD : Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:12 pm  

Mintball wrote:

In the South African situation, one should also remember that de Klerk – no matter how he'd started out – made the right decisions to follow the right, very different path.

I think it was pretty easy for him in the end.
When a regime is so oppressively, overtly, indecent, you run out of options of places to be able to run.
I wonder what Ajw's opinion on his heroines inability to condemn said regime is?

Re: MANDELA DEAD : Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:18 pm  

WIZEB wrote:

I think it was pretty easy for him in the end...

The step still needs to be taken and more than once in human history, leaders in such a position have chosen the path of increased violence. There was vast opposition to what happened.

WIZEB wrote:

When a regime is so oppressively, overtly, indecent, you run out of options of places to be able to run...

And this is also why I will not condemn, out of hand, a violent response.

It would have been lovely for all if South Africa had not been a situation where violence was required to bring about change, but given the nature and behaviour of the ruling party – a regime that shot unarmed schoolchildren calling for the right to a decent education – that was not a possibility.

To suggest otherwise is a bit like saying that, if only we'd used the right words, we didn't really need to go to war against Hitler.

In the case of South Africa, both the armed struggle and sanctions contributed to the end result.