Re: Another jailed for causing 'offence' : Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:46 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote: Well, and again without knowing what was tweeted, I do not believe that this lad was trying to make people laugh. You also for some reason seem to overlook that he pleaded guilty to the offence. It wasn’t tweeted, it was on his facebook page, http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/0 ... ods-jailed

Ferocious Aardvark wrote: Well, and again without knowing what was tweeted, I do not believe that this lad was trying to make people laugh. You also for some reason seem to overlook that he pleaded guilty to the offence. It wasn’t tweeted, it was on his facebook page, http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/0 ... ods-jailed

Re: Another jailed for causing 'offence' : Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:48 am  

Horatio Yed wrote:

But 12 weeks in prison? Perspective surely considering all the ills in the world.

I don't know how I can assess the perspective if I don't know what he put. I don't think it helps to try to blur the discussion by inferring that because many people get away with or walk free from perceived very bad things, that should go in his favour, though.

I'll bet it is a message that has been driven very widely home amongst the millions of Twitter users, though. Even those as stupid as him.

Re: Another jailed for causing 'offence' : Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:13 am  

Horatio Yed wrote:

What ever happened to sticks and stones?

This is an interesting point.

The thing is, words often can do far more harm than a punch. Much bullying is not physical in nature - but that doesn't mean it does no damage. Self-esteem, for instance, is far more difficult to 'cure' than a bruised arm. We know, for instance, of cases where verbal bullying has driven children and young people to suicide. So it's not something that is 'victimless'.

And it seems perhaps odd that many people, who would be openly dismissive of anyone appearing to favour a perpetrator over a victim would do that themselves when it comes to verbal bullying.

But I am equally uncomfortable with what appears to be an increasing culture of saying that anything that offends (or offends over a certain line - which is inevitably pretty subjective) is a criminal offence.

There is a difference between this incident (as reported) and bullying.

There should never be any right not to be offended. And this, in my book, is a vast overreaction.

Incitement would be a different matter, but there are laws to deal with that.

Criminalising offense, though? No. Absolutely not. And yes, that includes 'hate speech' too, providing it is not incitement.

Re: Another jailed for causing 'offence' : Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:23 am  

I with you on the bullying, but this wasn't a prolonged bullying campaign it was a very bad judgement on 'his own facebook page', supposedly only for people who know him.

April's family would never have known and going on to the self esteem point, i would suggest this lad probably suffers himself, it doesn't in anyway vindicate what he says, and i personally would never advocate it but the prosecution seems a grossly disproportionate response to something that was just ill advised and plain idiotic.

Re: Another jailed for causing 'offence' : Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:40 am  

What happened to offence being taken rather than given?
There are plenty of things around you could take offence at, most of us just rise above it and get on with life.

Re: Another jailed for causing 'offence' : Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:52 am  

Ridiculous to jail someone for comments on his own page.

Re: Another jailed for causing 'offence' : Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:57 am  

What about if people start saying stuff about politicians, and they find it vile?

Re: Another jailed for causing 'offence' : Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:00 pm  

Mintball wrote:

...
But I am equally uncomfortable with what appears to be an increasing culture of saying that anything that offends (or offends over a certain line - which is inevitably pretty subjective) is a criminal offence.

..

Me too. All the more so because the principal lobbyists for extended criminalisation are, predictably, the religionists, who all seem to unite on wanting a keen blasphemy crime actively being policed. And they can probably be offended several hundred factors more than you or I could ever hope to be.

Re: Another jailed for causing 'offence' : Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:34 pm  

No jail this time, just a community order.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19883828

No jail this time, just a community order.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19883828

Re: Another jailed for causing 'offence' : Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:13 pm  

Horatio Yed wrote: I with you on the bullying, but this wasn't a prolonged bullying campaign ... Oh, I completely agree. Horatio Yed wrote: ... it was a very bad judgement on 'his own facebook page', supposedly only for people who know him... But even if it was intended for a wider audience ... Should Kelvin MacKenzie go to jail for what he said about Liverpool fans at Hillsborough? Horatio Yed wrote: ... going on to the self esteem point, i would suggest this lad probably suffers himself, it doesn't in anyway vindicate what he says, and i personally would never advocate it but the prosecution seems a grossly disproportionate response to something that was just ill advised and plain idiotic. Agreed and agreed. Go back to the Tom Daley incident during the Games – a teenager, living on their own in a bedsit? We're talking about someone who needs help to get their life sorted out rather than a prison sentence. Fortunately, there was no conviction there. Derwent wrote: No jail this time, just a community order.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19883828 One does have to wonder how that is different from 'all sinners will die and go to hell'. Horatio Yed wrote: What about if people start saying stuff about politicians, and they find it vile? Does it count that I tweeted Danny Alexander and called him the most underqualified, overpromoted man in government? Politely, of course. Ferocious Aardvark wrote: Me too. All the more so because the principal lobbyists for extended criminalisation are, predictably, the religionists, who all seem to unite on wanting a keen blasphemy crime actively being policed. And they can probably be offended several hundred factors more than you or I could ever hope to be. Bang on. Although I'd suggest that it has its recent roots in something perhaps slightly different: in criticism of the state of Israel being met (by certain people) with accusations of anti-semitism, a smear that most people are keen to avoid, bearing in mind not-that-distant history. Some Muslims developed their own strand of that with any criticism of their religion being denounced as 'Islamophobia', and Christians appear unwilling to be left out these days, as we've see – with Lord Carey even now comparing these persecuted souls as akin to the Jews just before the start of the Holocaust 'proper'. Mind, you've also got the litigiousness of the Scientologists if you dare to suggest they're a c**t. God is bloody thin-skinned, isn't he? Y'know, for a god.

Horatio Yed wrote: I with you on the bullying, but this wasn't a prolonged bullying campaign ... Oh, I completely agree. Horatio Yed wrote: ... it was a very bad judgement on 'his own facebook page', supposedly only for people who know him... But even if it was intended for a wider audience ... Should Kelvin MacKenzie go to jail for what he said about Liverpool fans at Hillsborough? Horatio Yed wrote: ... going on to the self esteem point, i would suggest this lad probably suffers himself, it doesn't in anyway vindicate what he says, and i personally would never advocate it but the prosecution seems a grossly disproportionate response to something that was just ill advised and plain idiotic. Agreed and agreed. Go back to the Tom Daley incident during the Games – a teenager, living on their own in a bedsit? We're talking about someone who needs help to get their life sorted out rather than a prison sentence. Fortunately, there was no conviction there. Derwent wrote: No jail this time, just a community order.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19883828 One does have to wonder how that is different from 'all sinners will die and go to hell'. Horatio Yed wrote: What about if people start saying stuff about politicians, and they find it vile? Does it count that I tweeted Danny Alexander and called him the most underqualified, overpromoted man in government? Politely, of course. Ferocious Aardvark wrote: Me too. All the more so because the principal lobbyists for extended criminalisation are, predictably, the religionists, who all seem to unite on wanting a keen blasphemy crime actively being policed. And they can probably be offended several hundred factors more than you or I could ever hope to be. Bang on. Although I'd suggest that it has its recent roots in something perhaps slightly different: in criticism of the state of Israel being met (by certain people) with accusations of anti-semitism, a smear that most people are keen to avoid, bearing in mind not-that-distant history. Some Muslims developed their own strand of that with any criticism of their religion being denounced as 'Islamophobia', and Christians appear unwilling to be left out these days, as we've see – with Lord Carey even now comparing these persecuted souls as akin to the Jews just before the start of the Holocaust 'proper'. Mind, you've also got the litigiousness of the Scientologists if you dare to suggest they're a c**t. God is bloody thin-skinned, isn't he? Y'know, for a god.