Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:00 pm  

100% Wire wrote:

Rock God X wrote:

To add to that, has anyone ever heard a cabinet minister openly condemn Amazon, Vodafone or Tesco for their tax arrangements? Or even promise to enact legislation to curtail their avoidance? It's easy for them to bitch about the self-employed builder or plumber dodging tax, but it means fook all when Vodafone can get millions of pounds written off for the price of a posh lunch.

Is it in the billions, like I've heard?

Actually, now that you mention it, I seem to remember a figure of £6bn being mentioned. Or maybe I've just made that up.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:48 pm  

Rock God X wrote: Actually, now that you mention it, I seem to remember a figure of £6bn being mentioned. Or maybe I've just made that up. News report from the time And a different estimate Truth is that everyone involved will tell you that they don't really know how much was involved - HMRC had a figure in mind and Vodaphone had another, both were adamant that they were right but they settled at a figure probably somewhere in between, which is strange in itself because when HMRC come after individuals they are absolutely sure how much you owe and they won't be told that they are wrong even when they are wrong - its up to you to prove them wrong, its nothing short of an extortion racket sometimes. What is true is that Vodaphone paid absolutely no corporation tax at all last year

Rock God X wrote: Actually, now that you mention it, I seem to remember a figure of £6bn being mentioned. Or maybe I've just made that up. News report from the time And a different estimate Truth is that everyone involved will tell you that they don't really know how much was involved - HMRC had a figure in mind and Vodaphone had another, both were adamant that they were right but they settled at a figure probably somewhere in between, which is strange in itself because when HMRC come after individuals they are absolutely sure how much you owe and they won't be told that they are wrong even when they are wrong - its up to you to prove them wrong, its nothing short of an extortion racket sometimes. What is true is that Vodaphone paid absolutely no corporation tax at all last year

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:06 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

To add to that, has anyone ever heard a cabinet minister openly condemn Amazon, Vodafone or Tesco for their tax arrangements? Or even promise to enact legislation to curtail their avoidance? It's easy for them to bitch about the self-employed builder or plumber dodging tax, but it means fook all when Vodafone can get millions of pounds written off for the price of a posh lunch.

That's because the fault lies with inept politicians and HMRC. It's up to the former to enact legislation that does what they want and the latter to collect it. It's not just me that thinks that - look at the letters page in today's Times.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:07 pm  

Keith wrote:

Cameron was pressed about Vodafone and others the day after his comments on Jimmy Carr. He squirmed a bit then said he wasn't going to comment on every individual case.

I was no fan of the last government but this lot really are the scum of the earth.

When did the Vodafone issue arise?

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:22 pm  

DaveO wrote:

You are exactly right and it just shows how stupid he was to try and imply it was implicit in paying cash tax evasion was the reason. Discounts for cash can arise for legitimate reasons and always have done.

The other thing is tradesmen not paying tax is tax evasion not tax avoidance which is what the headlines have been all about recently (Jimmy Carr etc). Tax evasion has always been illegal so why mention it when there is no debate about it being wrong to evade tax? It is taken as a given it is.

Obviously as others have said, to try and deflect the focus of going after large scale tax avoiders is the only reason I can think of.

Maybe it is less sinister and he is just thick and doesn't know the difference?

Maybe because a 'problem' that costs the UK economy £2BN (according to the BBC) is still a problem....even if there are in your opinion bigger problems.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:50 pm  

Dally wrote:

When did the Vodafone issue arise?

I might have got them mixed up with Gary Barlow in this instance.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:22 am  

Presumably pubs, restaurants, corner shops, car parks and all those other trades that do a large percentage of their business in cash are also on the take and evading tax then?

You can tell a lot about ideology from who a government considers a risk. Under Labour, HMRC ran targetted campaigns aimed at professions. Under this lot it's been electricians, plumbers and now it's builders and associated trades.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:36 am  

Just to inform and educate Dally a little...

What the likes of Vodafone and others do is take a very, Uvery extreme interpretation of legislation and case law in order to treat profits earned in the UK from UK customers as being taxable elsewhere. The elsewhere often being somewhere like Luxembourg with lower CT rates.

They are effectively shifting money that should be taxed in theUK overseas, and challenging HMRC to pursue them through the courts for it in the knowledge that they have the cash and lawyers to string it out for years, while HMRC don't.

As a result, HMRC will settle for something as being better than nothing for the public purse. These companies are wilfully evading UK tax, not avoiding it. If successive rounds of public sector cuts hadn't pulled the teeth from HMRC they may not have found it so easy.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:31 am  

Even the Mail has got an opinion piece today, opining that 'what is immoral' is government constantly harping on about tax and morality, while doing nothing to deal with the likes of Google and Vodaphone (the two it mentions) paying next to nowt, and multi-millionaires who live in this country but pay next to no tax.

So there.

Hurrumph.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:37 am  

Mintball wrote:

Even the Mail has got an opinion piece today, opining that 'what is immoral' is government constantly harping on about tax and morality, while doing nothing to deal with the likes of Google and Vodaphone (the two it mentions) paying next to nowt, and multi-millionaires who live in this country but pay next to no tax.

So there.

Hurrumph.

I don't know if that would include Rothermere and Dacre, but I hope not