Re: Breivik Trial thread : Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:25 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Breivik is an odious individual. But societies and cultures change. Today he's viewed as a murderer. Tomorrow he could be a saint.

He himself says something similar in his manefesto

Re: Breivik Trial thread : Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:47 pm  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

He himself says something similar in his manefesto

Given the constant media obsession with creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of ethnic division and the widespread drift to right wing politics we're seeing throughout the West I think there's a distinct possibility that Breivik will increasingly be viewed as some weird kind of heroic cultural conservative who was ahead of the curve.

Re: Breivik Trial thread : Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:00 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Given the constant media obsession with creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of ethnic division and the widespread drift to right wing politics we're seeing throughout the West I think there's a distinct possibility that Breivik will increasingly be viewed as some weird kind of heroic cultural conservative who was ahead of the curve.

Swap Breivik's name in that paragraph for Dally and then it all makes sense.....

Hasn't our favourite doom-monger been on a similar wavelength to the nutty Norweigian??.....(Well, obviously Dally was never going to go on a mad killing spree, but apart from that, they seem to share similar views on the future of Europe).....

Re: Breivik Trial thread : Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:50 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Given the constant media obsession with creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of ethnic division and the widespread drift to right wing politics we're seeing throughout the West I think there's a distinct possibility that Breivik will increasingly be viewed as some weird kind of heroic cultural conservative who was ahead of the curve.

If he killed the immigrants then he might have been held as some kind of hero to some but I don't think that many of even the most extreme of the extremists could have much sympathy at all with him.

Re: Breivik Trial thread : Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:49 pm  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

If he killed the immigrants then he might have been held as some kind of hero to some but I don't think that many of even the most extreme of the extremists could have much sympathy at all with him.

Didn't some neo-Nazi groups distance themselves from him ?

Re: Breivik Trial thread : Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:09 pm  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

If he killed the immigrants then he might have been held as some kind of hero to some but I don't think that many of even the most extreme of the extremists could have much sympathy at all with him.

I don't think it's the likely outcome. But I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

People throughout history have always been bedazzled by ideologues who act in service of some political goal without any fear of punishment at the hands of established authority. It conjures up all kinds of parallels with classical heroic myths and taps into qualities of character we like to aspire to but rarely achieve (the ability to act in a purely uncompromising manner - which is the basis for half the output of Hollywood - from "Dirty Harry" to "The Hurt Locker").

I think society is particularly susceptible to the dubious attractions of a character like Breivik because there are seemingly so few people these days willing to stick their necks out and make a stand on, well, anything. Roll the clock back a hundred years and Belief was not in short supply. Belief in religion. Belief in science. Belief in the impending socialist revolution. Belief in a new united Germany etc. etc. Sure, many of these beliefs were unfounded, amounted to little or in some cases were lethally counter-productive. But they were there and people were passionate about them. Since then Belief has seemingly been brought to its knees by a corrosive mixture of moral relativism, cynicism, sophistry etc. leaving not much more than the Cult of Me.

I'm not saying the bulk of society is teetering on the edge of condoning Breivik's actions. But I suspect there will be a portion who admire his risking everything for a cause without admiring the cause or the methods. If that makes sense.

Re: Breivik Trial thread : Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:39 pm  

I think you're vastly overestimating the likelihood of Brevik ever being seen as anything other than a murderous psycopath by the vast majority of Norwegians. Once his trial is over the oxygen of publicity will be removed, and he'll start to age and look anything but the gallant defender of the Aryan race. I doubt he'll ever be more than a magnet to anyone other than the already lunatic fringe.

Charlie Manson attracted admirers despite his racism and murderous intent. He had a lot of supporters who mistakenly thought he was some kind of misunderstood hippie. But what people are attracted to is the 1969 version of Manson and his soundbites - not the 74-year old gibbering loon that he is today. Had he been executed (he originally got the death penalty before California repealed it) he'd be far more of a cult icon than he already is. The sort of opposite of Che Guevera - who had he lived would probably be seen as more of a buffoon than pinup boy.

I expect Breivik will fairly soon go down the same route, but much faster than the far more charismatic Manson. After all, if you're attracted by Nazi-style ideology, why follow a guy who killed less than a hundred people when you can follow someone who killed millions?

Re: Breivik Trial thread : Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:03 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

I think you're vastly overestimating the likelihood of Brevik ever being seen as anything other than a murderous psycopath

Which part of "I don't think it's the likely outcome" did you not understand?

Re: Breivik Trial thread : Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:59 am  

Mugwump wrote:

Which part of "I don't think it's the likely outcome" did you not understand?

What you said was:

I don't think it's the likely outcome. But I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

BR probably reads that in a similar way to me: you don't think it's likely; but you not only would not rule it out (which would I suppose cover an "it's a remote possibility" scenario); you prefaced it with the word "certainly" - this considerably firms up your "wouldn't".

So on a scale of "how likely", the impression you gave me is you think the chances of that outcome might be around 3/10. Which i would agree is vastly overestimating it. IMHO of course.

Re: Breivik Trial thread : Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:09 am  

I would 'entirely rule out' the chances of him every being glorified by anyone other than already disturbed people and those who are determined to 'shock' everyone else some way or another.