Re: What now for the UK? : Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:24 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

People almost predicting the end of the world because we will have less ties with EU.

Total scaremongering.

The Swiss have managed just fine.

The Swiss have managed fine without a nuclear deterrent and without a war on terror as well.

Re: What now for the UK? : Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:28 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Ajw71 wrote:

People almost predicting the end of the world because we will have less ties with EU.

Total scaremongering.

The Swiss have managed just fine.

The Swiss have managed fine without a nuclear deterrent and without a war on terror as well.

That's because nobody wants to take on the Swiss navy

Re: What now for the UK? : Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:42 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

Sal Paradise wrote:

Maybe I am confused but this idea that unless you are in the EEC you cannot trade in Europe seems way off the mark. If you look at the biggest firms in the world a number are non european yet they all seem to trade in Europe with being part of the club. Wal-Mart has supermarkets here, Samsung electronics are in every electronic retailer, Toyota cars everywhere you look etc. Are you saying if Samsung were british its market in Europe would disappear if we pulled out of the EEC?

What on earth are you rabbiting on about?

Wal-Mart has a UK presence because it bought Asda and turned the larger stores into Wal-Marts. Samsung has plants in post-accession, Eastern Europe, the used to have plants here but upped sticks for cheap labour in Slovakia. A major factor in the far-eastern car manufacturers locating to the UK was the ease of hiring & firing compared to other pre-accession EU countries. But they came to the EU because it's cheaper and easier to sell within the EU if you have a manufacturing plant here.

If we detach from the EU, make no mistake about it, those car manufacturers will be among the first to bugger off. Nissan has links with Renault and has already threatened to move to France, if we're not in the club, that threat will become reality, as will many other hi-tech industries.

It's interesting that the CBI have been virtually silent about last week's performance by Cameron. But as they represent UK manufacturing interests, I reckon they are waiting for the detail before deciding what to say.

Calm down - keep you Gieves & Hawkes on - just trying to stimulate the debate beyond the usual knuckle dragging pronouncements that you experience on here from the usual suspects!!

Re: What now for the UK? : Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:44 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

cod'ead wrote:

Sal Paradise wrote:

Maybe I am confused but this idea that unless you are in the EEC you cannot trade in Europe seems way off the mark. If you look at the biggest firms in the world a number are non european yet they all seem to trade in Europe with being part of the club. Wal-Mart has supermarkets here, Samsung electronics are in every electronic retailer, Toyota cars everywhere you look etc. Are you saying if Samsung were british its market in Europe would disappear if we pulled out of the EEC?

What on earth are you rabbiting on about?

Wal-Mart has a UK presence because it bought Asda and turned the larger stores into Wal-Marts. Samsung has plants in post-accession, Eastern Europe, the used to have plants here but upped sticks for cheap labour in Slovakia. A major factor in the far-eastern car manufacturers locating to the UK was the ease of hiring & firing compared to other pre-accession EU countries. But they came to the EU because it's cheaper and easier to sell within the EU if you have a manufacturing plant here.

If we detach from the EU, make no mistake about it, those car manufacturers will be among the first to bugger off. Nissan has links with Renault and has already threatened to move to France, if we're not in the club, that threat will become reality, as will many other hi-tech industries.

It's interesting that the CBI have been virtually silent about last week's performance by Cameron. But as they represent UK manufacturing interests, I reckon they are waiting for the detail before deciding what to say.

Calm down - keep you Gieves & Hawkes on - just trying to stimulate the debate beyond the usual knuckle dragging pronouncements that you experience on here from the usual suspects!! I didn't realise the likes of Apple actually manufactured anything in Europe yet they seem to have little problem dominating virtually any market they go into.

[Kosh]

Re: What now for the UK? : Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:13 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Calm down - keep you Gieves & Hawkes on - just trying to stimulate the debate beyond the usual knuckle dragging pronouncements that you experience on here from the usual suspects!!

You - and others to be fair - are spectacularly missing the point. Here's the nub of the issue...

At the moment, companies from all over the world can either manufacture or warehouse goods in the UK and pay no duty when those good are sold in the EU. If we were to leave, this would no longer be the case. Those companies would then be faced with a choice between paying duty to move goods between the UK and the EU or simply bypassing the UK altogether and saving time and money.

Which do you think will be more attractive?

It's even more of a no-brainer for companies who have resellers in the UK. At the moment those goods attract duty when imported into the UK but none when sold on into the EU. Upon our exit they would be looking at paying duty TWICE if they kept the status quo or simply moving to an EU-based reseller and paying duty only once.

Not being in the EU makes business more expensive and therefore reduces the competitiveness of UK based companies. It really is that simple.

[Kosh]

Re: What now for the UK? : Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:16 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

People almost predicting the end of the world because we will have less ties with EU.

Total scaremongering.

The Swiss have managed just fine.

You might want to take a look at exactly how the Swiss operate and what EU regulations they are forced to comply with despite having no say before you start holding them up as a shining example of life outside the EU. For a start their economy is in no way shape or form comparable to ours.

[DaveO]

Re: What now for the UK? : Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:35 pm  

Cibaman wrote:

DaveO wrote:

Cibaman wrote:

DaveO wrote:

You are assuming they will go round the loop again with us in it. They just decided not to do that.

No different to the employer stating "that was our final offer" when the trade union leader stormed out in the early hours of the morning. Time will tell.

Cameron killed the negotiations dead. He did't walk away ion the hope of a better offer. Your analogy is completely wrong.

We'll see

We have already seen. Cameron wrecked 40 years of British diplomacy in one go by issuing a veto that at the end of the day won't stop anything.

Whether or not what the 26 are trying to do saves the Euro does not alter that. The 26 are going to do what they are going to do (which is why the veto is toothless) and if along the way it hurts Britain they won't care. If it fails to save the Euro any damage done along the way will still have been done. The success or failure of these attempts save the Euro does not alter that nor alter the the fact Cameron has been exposed as a poor statesman and a weak leader.

Why is he a poor statesman? Well for 40 years successive UK governments have forged alliances inside the EU to prevent there being undue Franco-German influence on the EU that would disadvantage Britain. Edward Heath began that policy and it was continued by Thatcher and Major as well as all Labour governments. They were able to do that because they were at the table. We are no longer at the table because Cameron walked right into Sarkozy's trap. Sarkozy in one fell swoop removed the British obstacle that has been there for the last 40 years and Cameron just didn't see it coming. He totally out manoeuvred Cameron. We can see this is case now. We do not need to wait.

Why is he a weak leader? Because he has let the Eurosceptic tail of his party wag the dog and did what he did to appease them as much as anything. He should have told them to feck off and played a hand not influenced by any potential domestic rebellion of a bunch of nice but dim Tory MP's who are clearly too thick to appreciate the very simple truth Kosh has spelt out.

Re: What now for the UK? : Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:43 pm  

I think we all need to wait and see what happens. The Germans are too tight not to want our huge net contribution to the EU. Britain is too pragmatic. Even the German press has conceded the proposed approach might be illegal (as Britain contends). A compromise will be reached, that will allow DC to claim some sort of victory. Alternatively, the Euro collapses and this will be but an irrelevant side-show.

Re: What now for the UK? : Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:39 pm  

DaveO wrote:

We have already seen. Cameron wrecked 40 years of British diplomacy in one go by issuing a veto that at the end of the day won't stop anything.

And of course, as it didn't actually stop anything, it wasn't a veto.

Strop would perhaps be a better description.

[Mild Rover]

Re: What now for the UK? : Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:13 pm  

Chris28 wrote:

DaveO wrote:

We have already seen. Cameron wrecked 40 years of British diplomacy in one go by issuing a veto that at the end of the day won't stop anything.

And of course, as it didn't actually stop anything, it wasn't a veto.

Strop would perhaps be a better description.

Yep - A 'we're not going to stand in anybody's way' attitude would have been much more dignified and made no material difference. Wouldn't have won applause from the rabid europhobes, though.

Circumstance dictated what would happen - the only choice was how to spin it. That's why it doesn't feel like a watershed decision to me, for all that the events are historic.