Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:20 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

While it is clearly an exaggeration, and I voted Labour at GE, I do think Corbyn would have been pretty terrible as a PM and especially under these circumstances. Not as bad as Johnson in most ways, but his task would have been tougher with much less pliant media coverage.

Some people just aren’t cut out for leadership. For different, even opposite, reasons neither Johnson or Corbyn are. Labour, on a purely political level, may have dodged the bullet that has hit so many parts of society, in so many ways. They still need to get their act together, mind you.

I voted Labour for the first time because it was clear, to me at least, how dangerous Johnson and his party had become. Dangerous because of some of the anti- constitutional stuff they were trying to do, dangerous because they were pandering - more than pandering - to dangerous authoritarian elements and had purged their party of moderates. And we've always known Johnson is a lazy liar who does everything for his own personal advancement.

Corbyn was/is definitely not my cup of tea in lots of ways - although policy wise the Labour platform was the more sensible - but he struck me as a much lower risk than a dangerously extremist, anti-fact, anti-science, nakedly corrupt Tory party. We couldn't have dreamed how important and deadly and costly those that two last points would turn out to be within a matter of weeks.

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:40 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

I voted Labour for the first time because it was clear, to me at least, how dangerous Johnson and his party had become. Dangerous because of some of the anti- constitutional stuff they were trying to do, dangerous because they were pandering - more than pandering - to dangerous authoritarian elements and had purged their party of moderates. And we've always known Johnson is a lazy liar who does everything for his own personal advancement.

Corbyn was/is definitely not my cup of tea in lots of ways - although policy wise the Labour platform was the more sensible - but he struck me as a much lower risk than a dangerously extremist, anti-fact, anti-science, nakedly corrupt Tory party. We couldn't have dreamed how important and deadly and costly those that two last points would turn out to be within a matter of weeks.

How have you voted previously ?

I voted Tory this time, generally don’t bother, primarily because of Brexit. I voted remain at the time but felt it was only right to implement what the majority voted for

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:33 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

I voted Labour for the first time because it was clear, to me at least, how dangerous Johnson and his party had become. Dangerous because of some of the anti- constitutional stuff they were trying to do, dangerous because they were pandering - more than pandering - to dangerous authoritarian elements and had purged their party of moderates. And we've always known Johnson is a lazy liar who does everything for his own personal advancement.

Corbyn was/is definitely not my cup of tea in lots of ways - although policy wise the Labour platform was the more sensible - but he struck me as a much lower risk than a dangerously extremist, anti-fact, anti-science, nakedly corrupt Tory party. We couldn't have dreamed how important and deadly and costly those that two last points would turn out to be within a matter of weeks.

The scary thing is you actually believe this stuff.

All Johnson tried to do was deliver on a democratic vote - the problem he had was the vast majority of the MPs would stop at nothing to stop it happening and the had a speaker who facilitated that position. He had to try what he could and if the party line is one thing and a host of senior people go against that what was he supposed to do - embrace them? He may well have lost that battle but he certainly won the war and the likes of Grieve are now nowhere to be seen.

I would agree with your last point about Johnson but as Starmer showed yesterday they all have a very loose view of the truth. Corbyn produced a document on the NHS during the election that he claimed showed the Tories were going to sell off the NHS - a complete fabrication.

For Tory donors read trade unions - do you think under Corbyn union laws would not have been changed to give the unions more power?

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:21 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

he claimed showed the Tories were going to sell off the NHS - a complete fabrication.

True, the state of the NHS with underfunding and the pervasion of private companies with no special skills apart from being very good at winning contracts, all with their snouts in the trough show that it isn't something that's going to happen, it already has.

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

- do you think under Corbyn union laws would not have been changed to give the unions more power?

Well any right thinking person would hope so. The massive levels of income disparity and zero hours contracts and millions on near starvation wages propped up by government paying benefits because employers won't pay proper wages is one of the great tragedies of modern Britain. Balancing things back from big business in favour of the poor who work for them is long overdue.

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:18 pm  

[quote="Zoo Zoo Boom"
What is tragic is terminal cancer sufferers what a terrible situation they have lived in for the last 12 months - if you had six months to live in October what enjoyment will you have had?[/quote]

It is indeed tragic, that cancer sufferers and others in need of urgent medical help are having to wait longer or, receiving a less comprehensive level of care, which is all the more reason why Boris & Co should have got a proper grip of things.

Thankfully, the vaccine rollout seems to be the one positive in this and it could eventually start paying dividends.
However the three lockdowns and travel chaos etc, etc all encouraged by Boris, has been truly shocking.

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:07 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Thankfully, the vaccine rollout seems to be the one positive in this and it could eventually start paying dividends

The first major project in this entire period that they've not allowed a private company to manage, instead relying on the core nhs, and it's the first one to not have been a complete disaster. Who'd have thought.

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:57 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

The first major project in this entire period that they've not allowed a private company to manage, instead relying on the core nhs, and it's the first one to not have been a complete disaster. Who'd have thought.

Thank goodness for the private company that tested, manufactured and delivered the product - just think how long it would have taken for a public body to deliver one - horses for courses

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:18 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

True, the state of the NHS with underfunding and the pervasion of private companies with no special skills apart from being very good at winning contracts, all with their snouts in the trough show that it isn't something that's going to happen, it already has.
Well any right thinking person would hope so. The massive levels of income disparity and zero hours contracts and millions on near starvation wages propped up by government paying benefits because employers won't pay proper wages is one of the great tragedies of modern Britain. Balancing things back from big business in favour of the poor who work for them is long overdue.

All that will happen if you increase wages significantly unemployment will increase in proportion and inflation will go through the roof - companies need to deliver profits that is their rationale - why else take the risk they are not a charity. Minimum wage went up by 6% the last time for a lot of SME's that has simply eroded their profit because they cannot pass on the increases and it has a knock on effect across the rest of the workforce.

On the NHS - most of the abuse is down to the appalling standard of the administrative people especially procurement. Private firms like Nuffield provide a useful service in taking pressure off the NHS and reliving the rich of their savings

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:57 pm  

ColD wrote:

How have you voted previously ?

Conservative in every general election up to 2010, lib dem in '15 and '17.

The Tories were always a balance between authoritarian and moderates with the adults usually just about in charge.

Unfortunately they have become so extreme and infiltrated by the far right now with moderates literally purged that I don't think there will ever be a place back in the party for me in my lifetime.

[Durham Giant]

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:37 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

Thank goodness for the private company that tested, manufactured and delivered the product - just think how long it would have taken for a public body to deliver one - horses for courses

Just think of those private companies had now been given 100s of £millions by governments using our taxes we may never have got the vaccines.