Re: Unite strike again!! : Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:08 pm  

Looks like the much-trumpeted increase in personal allowances wasn't all it was cracked up to be either

Looks like the much-trumpeted increase in personal allowances wasn't all it was cracked up to be either

Re: Unite strike again!! : Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:11 pm  

cod'ead wrote: Looks like the much-trumpeted increase in personal allowances wasn't all it was cracked up to be either The Guardian was on about this the other day.

cod'ead wrote: Looks like the much-trumpeted increase in personal allowances wasn't all it was cracked up to be either The Guardian was on about this the other day.

Re: Unite strike again!! : Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:22 pm  

Dally wrote:

The Guardian was on about this the other day.

These are IFS figures.

Needless to say, Cameron doesn't accept them

Re: Unite strike again!! : Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:35 pm  

Dally wrote:

Because the companies are paying the market rate (people queue for the jobs). The tax credits are not paid by the companies.

But that was his argument, that the amount of tax which those companies paid, in turn paid for those tax credits to bump up the wage, so those companies were paying a decent wage but in a very roundabout way. Though you have gone on to make my point for me that they arent.

Re: Unite strike again!! : Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:50 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Then why go through such a ridiculously circular way of doing it? Why not just pay them a decent wage?

Because like all of us they pay what they consider a reasonable purchase price for the labour. When you buy something I doubt you pay more than you think is a reasonable cost. What would you consider a reasonable rate for unskilled labour?

Re: Unite strike again!! : Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:01 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Well, apart from when they have a little hand shake with the man at the revenue and don't pay much of it. Or when they're Amazon ...

But then again, perhaps what corporation tax they pay is actually paying for any education and health treatment their employees have.

As I said earlier (quoting a professor at a seminar the other day), capitalism doesn't work well if its employees are all "the sick and the thick".

Big business expects its employees to be healthy – and reasonably educated. These days, they're getting ever more demanding about what they think schools should teach – not that long ago, one business club was whinging that schools didn't produce people who knew how to deal with customers. Well durr ...

In other words, employers no longer want to train new employees themselves, but increasingly expect the state to fund that and then hand them over ready-trained staff.

Although, as we've seen, they might give people a bit of 'work experience' if the state pays for it.

And as to what else their tax (or what they pay of it) pays for: then there's the roads to transport all a companies goods or make deliveries– how much toll on the roads do the delivery fleets of the big four supermarkets alone take? And then there's the lights on the roads. And the refuse collection and all those other things that their tax is supposed to pay for – except when, like Amazon, they don't pay any at all (so we subsidise absolutely everything for Amazon) or, like Vodaphone, get let off around £6bn.

Companies don't just pay corporation tax do they? they also pay Employers NI all 14% which is effectively a tax on employing people - where does that go?

Companies like Vodafone are simply paying tax according to the rules set down in legislation. Do you voluntarily pay more tax than you should? I doubt it.

Re: Unite strike again!! : Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:03 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Because like all of us they pay what they consider a reasonable purchase price for the labour. When you buy something I doubt you pay more than you think is a reasonable cost. What would you consider a reasonable rate for unskilled labour?

I would pay as little as I could get away with. Though i would do that fully in the knowledge that those employees are entitled to strike if they believe that amount is too low. I would think not accepting that would make me a massive hypocrite who deserves to go out of business.

Saying that though, i am quite lazy and dealing with striking employees seems like a lot of effort so what i would most likely do is have a chat with them, see what they thought wanted, if it was affordable for the company i would probably pay it.

Buying a yacht would lose some of its attraction if my employees were living in near poverty.

But there seems to be a bit of a change, why have you changed "market rate" to "reasonable rate" those two things arent synonyms, they can in fact be completely opposing. I.e I would say an employee getting a reasonable rate for their work was a good thing. I would say an employee getting a market rate which was so low as to force the state, which educates, protects, and keeps healthy those employees to subsidise their earnings simply so they can afford the basics of living to be a very bad and immoral.

Re: Unite strike again!! : Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:12 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Companies don't just pay corporation tax do they? they also pay Employers NI all 14% which is effectively a tax on employing people - where does that go?

Companies like Vodafone are simply paying tax according to the rules set down in legislation. Do you voluntarily pay more tax than you should? I doubt it.

I have never ever done anything to minimise my tax payment. I have no idea why i would. I have needed 3 operations on my jaw which cost over £50k each to perform (all between the ages of 17 and 21 when there is no way i could have afforded to pay for either them or private insurance) The surgeon who operated on me was educated by that same state, his university education and his practical education within the NHS was paid for by the state, he is one of the eminent maxillofacial surgeons in the world and my treatment was exemplary. I was educated by the state and that education is responsible for the fact I can now get a job I not only enjoy but leaves me with a standard of living I am happy with. My nieces and nephew are now educated by the state, they have safe and secure homes but if they didnt the state would protect them.
Why wouldnt i want to minimise my contribution to an organisation which did that kind of thing?

Re: Unite strike again!! : Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:16 pm  

If companies simply wanted to avoid corporation tax they'd take on more people or pay them more - the wages costs being tax deductible.

Re: Unite strike again!! : Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:02 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Because like all of us they pay what they consider a reasonable purchase price for the labour...

In many if not most cases, companies pay what they think they can get away with paying.

And since we have companies that compete on the grounds of price and price alone – regardless of the impact on British jobs etc – then they obviously will want to keep driving down pay (well, for the plebs on the shop floor, but not for themselves. Obviously).

That is called basic economics.

And in the 'real world' that you're sop fond of, high unemployment is a wonderful way to help drag down those wages.

There are loads of people who don't feel loved by their employer, who is driving down their pay, but they don't do anything about it – presumably because they're scared. Indeed, they tell others that they shouldn't complain or dare to fight back.

And for goodness sake – everyone pays National Insurance, not just the employer. And everyone pays other taxes too. Plenty of them. It isn't just the poor big business.