[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:13 pm  

Cronus wrote:

What Europhiles fail to understand is that the EU in its current form is far from the finished item. If that's what you understand and truly believe in - the destruction of the sovereign nation state, move to absolute centralised power, etc - then I have no truck with your views. I will oppose them, but at least you would understand exactly what you're arguing for.

But the reality is too many remainers, Europhiles etc think all this is all tinfoil-hat stuff. It isn't, it's the ambition of the EU power base and it'll be there within our lifetimes.

It’s not so much that I want the destruction of sovereign nation states, but I think that over (probably a very long) time they’ll wither, as global problems demand global responses, or simply overwhelm us. Where I’m unconvinced by your argument, in that it’ll definitely or even likely happen in the way you suggest, is the idea that there is a single EU power base with a single ambition.

As Lo Kuan-Chung wrote, Empires wax and wane, states cleave asunder and coalesce. Brexit isn’t the end of the world - it is only the EU. But equally, you can’t convince that staying in was pants poo-ingly scary - it is only the EU.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:22 pm  

Cronus wrote:

I'm not from Leigh and I work from home at times because I manage my own diary. Bitterness from another jealous failed lefty.

Interpretation? Far from it. I even linked to the EU's own documents as evidence and you still dismiss it. Facts, my dear boy, historically correct for those who bother to look. Reaffirmed by the feckin EU itself. I can only assume it's all beyond your intelligence. Big words & all that.

Snowflake? Only if you don't understand the definition of a snowflake. You couldn't offend me or upset me if you tried, which you have. I drink salty snowflake tears like yours for fun.

I have a challenge for you which you won't accept because you can't: go and prove everything I said wrong.

It's isn't, and you can't.

Nope you attempted to put your own right wing fascist nationalistic spin crap on the E.U. origins .
The guy wpSpelloni was a vehement anti-fascist, imprisoned by the fascist friend of Adolf Hitler, Mussolini.
He was a visionary of his time who correctly foresaw the solution to stop wars in Europe was to curtail fascist nationalistic state dictators emerging again.
In that respect to date he got it right.

Now as regards the failed lefty you refer to, it can’t be me as I ran my own business till aged 55, could have retired before but liked my professional career so much kept at it.
I am not drawing state pension yet, neither am I drawing any of my personal or executive pensions, just living on my “allowances”.

I spend a smidgeon of my time laughing at Adolf Hitler wannabee’s As you.

Now if you like a challenge, tell us how much of your little house in Leigh you own

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:33 pm  

wotsupcas wrote:

I know the definition but there's a big difference in fearing anything foreign and not wanting to be governed by a foreign power.

The majority of leave voters who I've asked why they wanted to leave the E.U. was "there are too many foreigners coming over here & taking our jobs & homes"

wotsupcas wrote:

Save the xenophobe insult for the true Xenophobes, not just because someone voted brexit.

Why, a large number of people who voted to leave are Xenophobes.

wotsupcas wrote:

Words like nazi, racist and xenophobe are bandied about too often these days. They are used to insult people who happen to disagree with your political viewpoint.

But I'm not calling anyone a Nazi, nor have I insulted you in any way, it's just a shame you couldn't offer me the same geniality.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:36 pm  

They’re all still so angry.

I wonder who the blame will fall on next.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:32 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

The majority of leave voters who I've asked why they wanted to leave the E.U. was "there are too many foreigners coming over here & taking our jobs & homes"

Why, a large number of people who voted to leave are Xenophobes.

But I'm not calling anyone a Nazi, nor have I insulted you in any way, it's just a shame you couldn't offer me the same geniality.

Point 1 is anecdotal claptrap
Point 2, how do you know this? Or are you just guessing
Point 3, I didn't say YOU called anyone a NAZI and your initial post inferred that anyone who voted brexit is a xenophobe. So, yeah, you did insult me.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:42 pm  

wotsupcas wrote:

Point 1 is anecdotal claptrap
Point 2, how do you know this? Or are you just guessing
Point 3, I didn't say YOU called anyone a NAZI and your initial post inferred that anyone who voted brexit is a xenophobe. So, yeah, you did insult me.

Regards point 1 I would say he is correct.
I have heard it from within my own family and circle of acquaintances.

“ Farage is right, we are overrun with foreigners and Muslims taking our jobs, homes, benefits, doctors,dentists, hospital appointments” , they say.

When you ask them about Polish WW2 pilots and Ghurkas etc they just look at you and say ah but that’s just probably anecdotal:D

[Durham Giant]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:17 pm  

For those who don’t buy into the whole nationalist / jingoism. Go see Jo Jo Rabbit. It may well be fiction but based on truth that whatever indoctrination of the right goes on there are still free thinking progressives in the world.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:33 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

For those who don’t buy into the whole nationalist / jingoism. Go see Jo Jo Rabbit. It may well be fiction but based on truth that whatever indoctrination of the right goes on there are still free thinking progressives in the world.

You’ve only got to look at America where a republican candidate lost the popular vote but was installed as president by a corrupt democracy.

That same president has now put himself effectively above the law, and become an “elected “ dictator.
He can do what he wants lawful or otherwise , unchallenged.

What’s next on his agenda?

You can see where Cummins is coming from

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:58 pm  

Superblue wrote:

Nope you attempted to put your own right wing fascist nationalistic spin crap on the E.U. origins .
The guy wpSpelloni was a vehement anti-fascist, imprisoned by the fascist friend of Adolf Hitler, Mussolini.
He was a visionary of his time who correctly foresaw the solution to stop wars in Europe was to curtail fascist nationalistic state dictators emerging again.
In that respect to date he got it right.

Spellini was anti-facist in the same way Josef Stalin was anti-fascist, given he was communist, and at times a Leninist and Stalinist.

I don't disagree with his reasoning regarding prevention of future conflict, but I do disagree vehemently with his solution.

And if you bother to read his writings you see the majority of his motivations were actually born of his communist/socialist roots: abolition of private property, socialisation of monopolies, redistribution of wealth, etc. That's right, the primal roots of the EU lie in communism, and if you dig into most EU acts and treaties over time promoting ever closer union you will find Spellini in the background, driving them on.

Of course, you blindly consider this 'spin'. It isn't.

Now as regards the failed lefty you refer to, it can’t be me as I ran my own business till aged 55, could have retired before but liked my professional career so much kept at it.
I am not drawing state pension yet, neither am I drawing any of my personal or executive pensions, just living on my “allowances”.

I spend a smidgeon of my time laughing at Adolf Hitler wannabee’s As you.

You really are the gift that keeps giving - and absolutely typical of the intolerant left: faced with facts and losing an argument you resort to insults. Keep 'em up.

To paraphrase someone I'm sure you admire greatly, "I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single argument left."

Now if you like a challenge, tell us how much of your little house in Leigh you own

I don't live in Leigh. Too many Romanians.

All of it. Quite a big house. Overlooks farmland, tha knows.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:45 pm  

If you run a dairy what will happen to those that I presume supply you with your raw product once the EU grants stop because no way will they get anything from this government. I suppose it will be the survival of the fittest with those that cannot stand alone will cease trading.