FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

   WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - Federalism and Subsidiarity
::Off-topic discussion.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
In The Arms of 13 Angels14522No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 26 200223 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
30th Jan 14 14:039th Jan 14 11:22LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Online
Signature
Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice.
Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.

Re: Federalism and Subsidiarity : Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:46 pm  
Dally wrote:
It is a basic thing. Why should you trust more remote (genetically speaking) people to have a big say in your life? Especially when millions of your countrymen have died at their hand over centuries? Why trust people coming with a completely different way of thinking and legal system to interfere win the machinations of a country with superior principles? It would be mindless and dangerous to.

The first step along the EU route was the European Coal and Steel treaty, the first move specifically towards a Europe which would never again see a war between its constituent countries.
So far, it's worked.

As for genetically different, you need to learn a bit more about genetics, as your current grasp is tenuous at best and fascist at worst.
Ironic really, given your view of Germans.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach362No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Aug 16 200816 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
20th Feb 16 16:5920th Feb 16 12:29LINK
Milestone Posts
250
500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Up North

Re: Federalism and Subsidiarity : Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:36 pm  
The USA and the EU are quite different. The USA has a long history of being one country with one currency and a common language. They have one constituation and a strong belief in the American way.

Europe is a very different kettle of fish with a long history of rivalry and conflict with many different languages, customs and traditions.

The odds are against the EU as it stands becoming a true Federal State for many reasons.

Had the EU stopped when it was the EEC it would in my view have been a greater success that it is now. But as it moved on from being a free trading zone it appears to have become a vehicle to fulfill the greed of the politicians and bureaucrats and self interest still rules the day for most members.

The EU is undemocratic, hugely wasteful and uncompetitive and in need of a radical overhaul.

I do not believe the public of most member countries want to sign away their sovereign rights and identities... they are being led on with false promises of jam tomorrow.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member8633No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Apr 27 200322 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
22nd Jun 15 22:3022nd Jun 15 21:57LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Signature
God is nothing more than an imaginary friend for grown ups.

Re: Federalism and Subsidiarity : Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:02 pm  
Dally wrote:
It is a basic thing. Why should you trust more remote (genetically speaking) people to have a big say in your life? Especially when millions of your countrymen have died at their hand over centuries? Why trust people coming with a completely different way of thinking and legal system to interfere win the machinations of a country with superior principles? It would be mindless and dangerous to.



Final proof you are nothing more than a troll.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
In The Arms of 13 Angels14522No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 26 200223 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
30th Jan 14 14:039th Jan 14 11:22LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Online
Signature
Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice.
Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.

Re: Federalism and Subsidiarity : Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:37 am  
Lord Elpers wrote:
...
Had the EU stopped when it was the EEC it would in my view have been a greater success that it is now. But as it moved on from being a free trading zone it appears to have become a vehicle to fulfill the greed of the politicians and bureaucrats and self interest still rules the day for most members.

From its earliest inception, the EU has been for ever closer union.
I keep hearing people saying that they voted to go into a trading arrangement not a political unity.
They are wrong ... they voted to remain in (not join) a group that was already committed to ever closer union.
Are you saying that greed of politicians and bureaucrats is worse in Europe than Westminster, if so where have you been the last few years?

Lord Elpers wrote:
I do not believe the public of most member countries want to sign away their sovereign rights and identities... they are being led on with false promises of jam tomorrow.

Signing away of sovereignty? Surely you mean pooling of sovereignty?
The EU has been around for decades now and the identities of the member states are still as vibrant as ever.
What false promises of jam tomorrow?
Individually, member states have less and less clout globally, together they are immensely stronger.
DaveO 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Moderator14395No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Dec 22 200123 years328th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
4th May 24 14:0028th May 22 23:44LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Chester
Signature
Last league derby at Central Park 5/9/1999: Wigan 28 St. Helens 20
Last league derby at Knowsley Road 2/4/2010: St. Helens 10 Wigan 18
Moderator

Re: Federalism and Subsidiarity : Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:46 pm  
Lord Elpers wrote:
The USA and the EU are quite different. The USA has a long history of being one country with one currency and a common language. They have one constituation and a strong belief in the American way.

Europe is a very different kettle of fish with a long history of rivalry and conflict with many different languages, customs and traditions.


What has that got to do with Federalism and Subsidiarity? It's not abut tradition or language. The USA is not as homogeneous as you make out in any case. There are very rich states and very poor states and many take very different views on a vast range of issues from religion to gun ownership. They can do this because of Subsidiarity and so can the countries of the EU. In fact Federalism and Subsidiarity are the means by which countries can retain their separate traditions and identities just as Utah and Nevada are at opposite ends of the spectrum in many ways.

The odds are against the EU as it stands becoming a true Federal State for many reasons.


Such as? Lack of understanding about what it means?

Had the EU stopped when it was the EEC it would in my view have been a greater success that it is now. But as it moved on from being a free trading zone it appears to have become a vehicle to fulfill the greed of the politicians and bureaucrats and self interest still rules the day for most members.

The EU is undemocratic, hugely wasteful and uncompetitive and in need of a radical overhaul.


Again that has nothing to do with Federalism. Aspects of the EEC needed reform such as the common agricultural policy. It still does but then I am sure there are many reforms needed within the UK and that isn't used as an argument against the political system.

If there are politicians and bureaucrats in the EU who are acting in a self interested way then its kind of the way of the world st the moment in that since globalization took off that seems to pervade our own government and big business. I don't think I can remember a time when you get the impression of being ruled by a super-class of technocrats but again that has got nothing to do with Federalism. If we left the EU tomorrow the technocrats are going nowhere.

[quoteI do not believe the public of most member countries want to sign away their sovereign rights and identities... they are being led on with false promises of jam tomorrow.[/quote]

The whole point of the Federalism model is you don't sign away sovereign rights and identities. You cooperate on things that are for the common good, such as Interpol and you have Subsidiarity to do what the hell you like outside of the common interest provided its legal. And before you say the ECHR is what is taking away our sovereignty we created it and have always been subject to its laws since it was set up.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach362No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Aug 16 200816 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
20th Feb 16 16:5920th Feb 16 12:29LINK
Milestone Posts
250
500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Up North

Re: Federalism and Subsidiarity : Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:58 pm  
El Barbudo wrote:
From its earliest inception, the EU has been for ever closer union.
I keep hearing people saying that they voted to go into a trading arrangement not a political unity.
They are wrong ... they voted to remain in (not join) a group that was already committed to ever closer union.
Are you saying that greed of politicians and bureaucrats is worse in Europe than Westminster, if so where have you been the last few years?.


The government voted to join the EEC.... as in European Economic Community. A couple of years later the public voted to remain in the EEC but it was at the time understood to be what it was ie: an economic free trading club.

It is true that the political leaders of France and Germany harboured political and perhaps federalist ideas but not all members were committed to closer union and the European public were not given the chance to say if they were committed to a closer union.

The greed of the EU politicians and bureaucrats could well be worse than the in UK but as the EU accounts have not been independently signed off for many years we may never know! And we do not have unelected and unaccountable commissioners who wield enormous power and spend the public´s money like water.

By the way I have lived and worked in 3 different EU countries for 12 of the last 30 years




El Barbudo wrote:
Signing away of sovereignty? Surely you mean pooling of sovereignty?
The EU has been around for decades now and the identities of the member states are still as vibrant as ever.
What false promises of jam tomorrow?
Individually, member states have less and less clout globally, together they are immensely stronger.


The performance, or should I say lack of performance, regarding the Euro crisis has shown the serious problems that have to be overcome before any talk of further integration.

The EU has grown uncompetitive in part due to its own stringent regulations on business and has serious problems of debt with no real plan to solve it other than real austerity.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
In The Arms of 13 Angels14522No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 26 200223 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
30th Jan 14 14:039th Jan 14 11:22LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Online
Signature
Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice.
Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.

Re: Federalism and Subsidiarity : Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:44 am  
Lord Elpers wrote:
The government voted to join the EEC.... as in European Economic Community. A couple of years later the public voted to remain in the EEC but it was at the time understood to be what it was ie: an economic free trading club.

After De Gaulle had repeatedly said "Non" to UK entry and when Pompidou became President of France, the French stance shifted towards allowing the UK in as a member but only as part of a deal deepening monetary union, co-operation on foreign policy and the CAP.
I doubt this ecaped the notice of the UK government or their negotiation team at the time.

Lord Elpers wrote:
It is true that the political leaders of France and Germany harboured political and perhaps federalist ideas but not all members were committed to closer union ...

See above and re-read your history.

Lord Elpers wrote:
... and the European public were not given the chance to say if they were committed to a closer union.

After the above (which was widely reported), the UK public voted 2 to 1 to stay in.

Lord Elpers wrote:
... The greed of the EU politicians and bureaucrats could well be worse than the in UK but as the EU accounts have not been independently signed off for many years we may never know! And we do not have unelected and unaccountable commissioners who wield enormous power and spend the public´s money like water.

As the commission is responsible for approx. 20% of the errors in the accounts and the member states for the other 80% ... and that the error rate is now down to about 4% (I may be slightly out on that last bit) and, as the auditors confirm that most of the errors are reclaimable, the non-sign-off is not all the EUs fault.
There may well be Commissioners claiming for moat-cleaning, duck-house repair and mortgages that they don't have but I don't see that as a reason to withdraw from the EU any more than I see it as a reason to withdraw from Westminster.

Lord Elpers wrote:
... By the way I have lived and worked in 3 different EU countries for 12 of the last 30 years

I have worked in Spain and Germany for more than a year each at a stretch and have made many, many business visits over the last twenty years ... and your point is ?
Lord Elpers wrote:
... The performance, or should I say lack of performance, regarding the Euro crisis has shown the serious problems that have to be overcome before any talk of further integration.

I think you are fairly isolated in that view as most economic literates agree that the lack of fiscal integration was what let down the Euro. i.e. The Euro cart was put before the fiscal integration horse.
Lord Elpers wrote:
... The EU has grown uncompetitive in part due to its own stringent regulations on business and has serious problems of debt with no real plan to solve it other than real austerity.

Ah, a Farage favourite, this one.
The truth is that that the EU abolished and/or harmonised tens of thousands of individual nations' rules, regulations, tariff and non-tariff barriers making it far easier for them to trade within and outwith the EU. This enormous task was completed ahead of schedule and under-budget.
If you are referring to social and employment law, ask yourself why it is that when the UK had an opt-out for the working-time directive, Germany still out-performed it whilst complying with the directive ... strange eh?
Also ask yourself, why the UKs trade with both the EU and the USA rose during that time?
The idea that the UK is being strangled by EU red tape is actually the opposite of the truth ... EU harmonisation has been of enormous help.
However, I would agree that austerity is being relied upon far too heavily by the EU and I would (and often do, on this very message board) level the same charge against the UK government.


But we are straying from the topic of federalism and subsidiarity here.

Subsidiarity would push MORE power to the local level than we in England are allowed by Westminster at the moment.
Federalism is not solely an EU possibility, the UK could be a federation, this could be a political solution for the West Lothian question, for example.
Previous

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 202 guests

REPLY

Subject: 
Message:
   
Please note using apple style emoji's can result in posting failures.
Use the FULL EDITOR to better format content or upload images, be notified of replies etc...

Return to The Sin Bin


RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
0m
Transfer chatter for 2025 - New Dec 1st tamper date
HU8HFC
33
8m
Accounts
Bubba
200
54m
Squad numbers 2025
Butcher
46
Recent
Film game
Boss Hog
6099
Recent
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63340
Recent
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
40874
Recent
All time academy produced Super league era side
Manheim
4
Recent
Spirit of the Rhinos
exiledrhino
15
Recent
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
Trebor1
2658
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
2m
Liam Kay
westgaterunn
55
2m
All time academy produced Super league era side
Manheim
4
3m
Spirit of the Rhinos
exiledrhino
15
4m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
Trebor1
2658
4m
Recruitment rumours and links
Velcro Boots
3567
4m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63340
7m
New Players
Benny Profan
155
7m
Shirt reveal coming soon
Scarlet Pimp
73
8m
Fixtures 2025
ChinaBull
11
8m
IMG scores
Shifty Cat
292
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Shareholder/Fans Forum
Wollo-Wollo-
2
TODAY
Elliot Michella extends contract
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Christmas Party Night B Vue tonight cancelled
Dunkirk Spir
3
TODAY
Doug Laughton
ArthurClues
11
TODAY
Sports Personality of the Year
Wires71
13
TODAY
Forget-me-not Childrens hospice
H.G.S.A
1
TODAY
All time academy produced Super league era side
Manheim
4
TODAY
Wigan warriors 2022 away shirt
WWste
4
TODAY
Captains Challenge for Televised Games in 2025
Huddersfield
5
TODAY
Captains Challenge to be introduced in 2025
Zig
8
TODAY
Rule Changes
Rugby Raider
5
TODAY
Player Contracts
Trojan Horse
6
TODAY
Fans Forum 12 Dec 11th
Dunkirk Spir
3
TODAY
Laurie Daley returns as NSW origin coach
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
2025 Challenge Cup
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Challenge Cup
BigTime
6
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Captains Challenge for Televis..
267
England Women Las Vegas train-..
428
Opening Championship and Leagu..
599
2025 Betfred Super League Fixt..
1617
Magic Weekend 2025 - Back To N..
982
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
1660
England's Women Demolish The W..
1525
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
1741
Operational Rules Tribunal â..
1476
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
1710
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
2259
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
2467
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
2706
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
2260
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
2501
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds - Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield - Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Fri 28th Feb
SL
20:00
Huddersfield-Hull FC
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Salford
SL
20:00
Leigh-Catalans
Sat 1st Mar
SL
14:30
Wakefield - St.Helens
SL
21:30
Wigan-Warrington
Sun 2nd Mar
SL
15:00
Leeds-Castleford
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
0m
Transfer chatter for 2025 - New Dec 1st tamper date
HU8HFC
33
8m
Accounts
Bubba
200
54m
Squad numbers 2025
Butcher
46
Recent
Film game
Boss Hog
6099
Recent
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63340
Recent
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
40874
Recent
All time academy produced Super league era side
Manheim
4
Recent
Spirit of the Rhinos
exiledrhino
15
Recent
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
Trebor1
2658
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
2m
Liam Kay
westgaterunn
55
2m
All time academy produced Super league era side
Manheim
4
3m
Spirit of the Rhinos
exiledrhino
15
4m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
Trebor1
2658
4m
Recruitment rumours and links
Velcro Boots
3567
4m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63340
7m
New Players
Benny Profan
155
7m
Shirt reveal coming soon
Scarlet Pimp
73
8m
Fixtures 2025
ChinaBull
11
8m
IMG scores
Shifty Cat
292
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Shareholder/Fans Forum
Wollo-Wollo-
2
TODAY
Elliot Michella extends contract
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Christmas Party Night B Vue tonight cancelled
Dunkirk Spir
3
TODAY
Doug Laughton
ArthurClues
11
TODAY
Sports Personality of the Year
Wires71
13
TODAY
Forget-me-not Childrens hospice
H.G.S.A
1
TODAY
All time academy produced Super league era side
Manheim
4
TODAY
Wigan warriors 2022 away shirt
WWste
4
TODAY
Captains Challenge for Televised Games in 2025
Huddersfield
5
TODAY
Captains Challenge to be introduced in 2025
Zig
8
TODAY
Rule Changes
Rugby Raider
5
TODAY
Player Contracts
Trojan Horse
6
TODAY
Fans Forum 12 Dec 11th
Dunkirk Spir
3
TODAY
Laurie Daley returns as NSW origin coach
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
2025 Challenge Cup
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Challenge Cup
BigTime
6
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Captains Challenge for Televis..
267
England Women Las Vegas train-..
428
Opening Championship and Leagu..
599
2025 Betfred Super League Fixt..
1617
Magic Weekend 2025 - Back To N..
982
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
1660
England's Women Demolish The W..
1525
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
1741
Operational Rules Tribunal â..
1476
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
1710
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
2259
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
2467
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
2706
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
2260
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
2501


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!